Shiki's Eyes of Death Perception

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Shiki's Eyes of Death Perception

Unread postby Raw » August 22nd, 2007, 3:25 am

This is huge spoilers for everyone starting out with the game.

Also, i don't want super mumbo jumbo, just light expeculation based on what happened on Tsukihime. I don't bother reading complex explanations, because most of them are pure expeculation not based on facts. Facts people.

I was wondering about his ability. When he kills something, be it human or specially a thing, i noticed it has a great impact on his health. When he kills the Earth, well, part of it when fighting with Arcueid, he almost got killed. Why? Is he using his vital source, life, as a medium to cause the death of another thing?

Another thing, why could Shiki kill some part of the Earth, but yet, he couldn't see a single line on Arcueid on the Full Moon. True Ancestors are supposed to be the closest beings to the Earth, but still under it's power, so it's seems a bit illogic for me (Remember that the Earth, or Reality as it was also called, can even revive Ciel after she dies). I don't really care if it was Nasu's mistake or whatever, i was just wondering, and would gladly accept new information.


Please, no super complex scientific mumbo jumbo. I hate it.
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Unread postby scwintz101 » August 22nd, 2007, 6:40 am

good question
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Unread postby Chetyre » August 22nd, 2007, 7:39 am

you should have marked spoilers in the title if you expect lots of spoils...

about him almost dying, it's because he is just a human. human brains weren't made to perceive the death of things, so using his ability puts a lot of stress on him.

and about Arcueid, because the true ancestors don't come from earth, they are creatures based on the likeness of crimson moon. at least that is what I think
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Unread postby Raw » August 22nd, 2007, 10:38 pm

Don't get mad, but, dieing of stress? I don't really get that. So i still defend my "trading life essence for a kill".

About Arcueid, i don't remember where, but i read something about the True Ancestors being formed by the Earth, for a specific mission, which i don't remember, or something along these lines.
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Unread postby PrimarchBentley » August 23rd, 2007, 12:04 am

I don't know how much any answer may 'satisfy' what you're looking for. In general, it seems to be 'the limiter' put on Shiki, the whole 'with great power...' spiel.

What we do know.
When he uses Mystical Eyes of Death Perception, it causes Shiki pain. Even moreso, when he extends the power from seeing the 'death' of living things (something that is easy to comprehend) to the 'death' of inanimate objects (something much harder for someone to naturally comprehend). In the scenario you seem to be referring to, Shiki 'extends the metaphor' of his ability to probably the largest point. When he does so, he is on the verge of death. "Why?" you ask? He could be stressing himself out so much that his blood pressure spikes and he's in real damger of popping a blood vessel or two (or more) in his head (hellooooo aneurysm). We just aren't ever really told specifics.

We're told, generally, that 'seeing the lines of death is more than what humans can normally comprehend,' that seeing the death of 'things' is even more taxing, and if Shiki does it too much, he most likely will die. He does it too much, he'll damage his brain/head/self irrevocably (I believe Arc uses the analogy of revving an engine too high for too long). In the Epilogue, Shiki gets further insight, but I shan't spoil -too- much. Go finish the game, get as much info from it as you can (really, there's insight to be had in pretty much all paths), then come back and let's have more of this spoilerific discussion, neh?

Now, that may not satisfy what you want to call it. That's fine. I may imagine stress to the point that blood vessels in Shiki's head just suddenly pop due to strain and he dies a horrible, horrible death for using the Eyes 'just one time too many' or 'just too much that last time,' so 'stress' works for me. Personally, I think 'trades life essence' makes it sound too... 'flowery,' but again, that's me.
Poor Shiki, losing essence. He needs to drink only distilled water (or rain water) and only pure-grain alcohol... Darn fluoridating Commies.


As for Arc and True Ancestors
-many of those answers are supposed to be in the Crimson Moon side story in KT. Otherwise, spoilerage can be found via Wikipedia.


Always remember; guide, wikis, etc. only give a framework. The depth of understanding can often be had only when you have all the details, and Nasu sure loves his obscurity at times... :lol:
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Unread postby Chetyre » August 23rd, 2007, 12:25 am

Raw wrote:Don't get mad, but, dieing of stress? I don't really get that. So i still defend my "trading life essence for a kill".

About Arcueid, i don't remember where, but i read something about the True Ancestors being formed by the Earth, for a specific mission, which i don't remember, or something along these lines.



you know... I didn't mean stress as in the emotion, I meant stress as in forcing something to work for too long for over what it was designed to do. like how you put products under stress tests to see how much they can handle before they break
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Unread postby Raw » August 23rd, 2007, 4:08 am

I was satisfied with your answer Prima (can i call you that?), so don't break a sweat. Yeah, i misunderstood Chetyre when he mentioned stress, just as he corrected himself above me. It's a valid option and i will replace it with my old one, and yeah, mine does sound "flowery", but i thought that in a world full of magic circuits and death-reversing Realities, life depleting abilities would have grounding.

It's ok, i've finished the game, haven't started KT and will gladly and obviously give it a try. One thing that i don't have clear, when Shiki kills a part of the world in the same scenario, why was he going to die? For forcing himself to see the death of the Earth, or because he killed it? I know that both actions come with stress for Shiki, but what is the catalyst for Shiki's own death for using his own ability, see or do? Just like in mathematics (real ones, not nasu ones) you struggle to understand a theory or a problem, but once you got that down, the numerical operations are easy. I hope you get my point, if you don't, i'll gladly explain some more
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Unread postby Chetyre » August 23rd, 2007, 4:18 am

seeing is the problem, doing doesn't even require any force to be applied to it
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Unread postby chasmirror » August 25th, 2007, 5:54 pm

Raw wrote:
I was satisfied with your answer Prima (can i call you that?), so don't break a sweat. Yeah, i misunderstood Chetyre when he mentioned stress, just as he corrected himself above me. It's a valid option and i will replace it with my old one, and yeah, mine does sound "flowery", but i thought that in a world full of magic circuits and death-reversing Realities, life depleting abilities would have grounding.

It's ok, i've finished the game, haven't started KT and will gladly and obviously give it a try. One thing that i don't have clear, when Shiki kills a part of the world in the same scenario, why was he going to die? For forcing himself to see the death of the Earth, or because he killed it? I know that both actions come with stress for Shiki, but what is the catalyst for Shiki's own death for using his own ability, see or do? Just like in mathematics (real ones, not nasu ones) you struggle to understand a theory or a problem, but once you got that down, the numerical operations are easy. I hope you get my point, if you don't, i'll gladly explain some more


Let me try to satisfy your curiosity.

First of all, killing itself does not require much effort on Shiki's part. It is as easy as putting a blade on it. The real difficult part is trying to see the death itself.

You used understanding a mathematical theory as an example. Actually, that is a good analogy, just not the quite right one for this. Shiki's eyes can see death because he "understands" the concept of "death." So comparing to math, Shiki already got the theory down. However, seeing an actual death is a different matter. It is more like using your computer to process data using the given theory.

Shiki, being a living being himself, can understand the death of living things more easily. So he can see their deaths more easily because he already has a deep understanding of the concept of their death, especially he himself had died once already. If I have to compare it to a math formula, it'd be like trying to solve an equation with the most of its variables already given. However, a death of an inanimate object, like earth, is a lot more difficult since Shiki can't comprehend what it would be like. So it would be like solving a long equation with no given variables. If the death of a living thing is like a high-school math, the death of earth would be comparable to calculating the orbital path of the entire solar system in the last 100 years. They are just on the whole different set of difficulty levels.

Alcueid used a good analogy of high-strung engine, but the similar assessment can be made by using a computer. Remember the first Mac? For Shiki to see a death of earth is to calculate the path of the entier solar system in the last 100 years using the first ever Mac. So much data has to be processed in the such short amount of time, and the result is too big to even be saved. In other words, Shiki's brain has to process everything to see the death of earth every time Shiki tries. He can't even keep the result in his head to be used in the later time.

Of course, this puts such a strain in human brain that it can be fatal. Imagine getting a migraine over a difficult problem. Now imagine of having that problem becoming 100 times more complex. This wouldn't even be close to what Shiki goes through when he sees a death of animal. So you can see why Shiki seeing the death of earth is a lot harder on his brain.
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Unread postby Raw » August 25th, 2007, 6:03 pm

That was a very good answer. Anyway, another topic. When he was in the hospital, seeing lines of inanimate objects didn't cause him any pain as i remember (he was still scared sh*tless). So it can be considered that as his age progresses, he feels more strain on himself when seeing death, but, here's the incognita: has his skill improved with time so that it has a greater strain in his body?, or is it that his brain has been damaged slowly as time has passed?. Or maybe both?
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Unread postby Ephyon » August 25th, 2007, 11:25 pm

Raw wrote:That was a very good answer. Anyway, another topic. When he was in the hospital, seeing lines of inanimate objects didn't cause him any pain as i remember (he was still scared sh*tless). So it can be considered that as his age progresses, he feels more strain on himself when seeing death, but, here's the incognita: has his skill improved with time so that it has a greater strain in his body?, or is it that his brain has been damaged slowly as time has passed?. Or maybe both?


Stuff he sees automatically (Not having to focus) doesn't wear him down so much. Lines on objects isn't that hard, it's when he tries to see dots that things get messy. Of course, if he's already weakened, just seeing anything at all will still give him migraine.
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Unread postby iclim4 » August 26th, 2007, 3:37 am

Raw wrote:
I was satisfied with your answer Prima (can i call you that?), so don't break a sweat. Yeah, i misunderstood Chetyre when he mentioned stress, just as he corrected himself above me. It's a valid option and i will replace it with my old one, and yeah, mine does sound "flowery", but i thought that in a world full of magic circuits and death-reversing Realities, life depleting abilities would have grounding.

It's ok, i've finished the game, haven't started KT and will gladly and obviously give it a try. One thing that i don't have clear, when Shiki kills a part of the world in the same scenario, why was he going to die? For forcing himself to see the death of the Earth, or because he killed it? I know that both actions come with stress for Shiki, but what is the catalyst for Shiki's own death for using his own ability, see or do? Just like in mathematics (real ones, not nasu ones) you struggle to understand a theory or a problem, but once you got that down, the numerical operations are easy. I hope you get my point, if you don't, i'll gladly explain some more


if i recall correctly he was going to die because he was stabbed in the the chest and his head got fractured by acrueids grip.
he stabbed himself because he knew roa would take over if he died.

if you dont mind i have a few questions myself.. ^^

about shiki's eyes, remember how beds have lines of death, well beds came from trees, which had lines of death, since the tree was destined to die by having those lines cut and made into a bed. so shouldnt the bed be free of lines?... that sounds a bit confusing
(let me make it clearer) shiki saw a bed, with 4 lines, he cuts those four lines now there are 4 big parts whice have no lines since shiki already cut them all. i remember shiki's sensei saying that as long as something has shape or form it cannot last forever and will eventually die that is why it has lines which is its predestined death. well the parts of the bed still have form and they still exists, but they dont have lines anymore, isnt that a contradiction?.
now, what if someone made one of the beds legs into a club, that would mean that that weapon has no predestined death, which means its a perfect existence which cannot be destroyed(kinda like arcuied).

anyway, what happened when shiki killed the world, did plants and trees die? >.<
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Unread postby Chronowraith » August 26th, 2007, 4:00 am

well i think for the tree->bed question it has to do with how things are defined. the existence of the tree is dead when it becomes the bed, however the existence of the bed is very much there. therefore it is possible to kill the bed.
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Unread postby iclim4 » August 26th, 2007, 4:16 am

Chronowraith wrote:well i think for the tree->bed question it has to do with how things are defined. the existence of the tree is dead when it becomes the bed, however the existence of the bed is very much there. therefore it is possible to kill the bed.


i dont think that how it works
remember when shiki became crazy, in his room all the lines were annoying him, so he cut all of them(except the walls and bed i guess or else akiha, hisui or kohako could come in), so if he cut the chair for example and it breaks into 7 pieces, its a "killed" chair, but the existence of the chair parts still exists, now if we go by your theory, even if he killed the chair more lines would appear on the parts, which would have drove shiki insane cause the lines would have multiplied everytime he kills an inanimate object in his room.
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Umm..

Unread postby james-skarz » August 26th, 2007, 6:27 am

I'm not sure if I can say anything (even though I have read all of Tsukihime)...but I think Shiki's a Bruce Lee case..Bruce Lee wanted perfection and pushed his body to the pinnacle of perfection but in doing so and keeping himself up with everything in his life his head just went into overdrive and killed him.

Here's further speculation:

Shiki's ability puts extreme stress on a normal person due to the fact that no human can actually perceive death per se, which is why his brain can't physically understand. Shiki's ability tells him not how to really kill something, but how to deny his existence. Similar to how in Fate/Stay Night a Faker/Tracing Sorcerer cannot make something that doesn't exist or isn't meant to (Say that it is impossible to recreate Excalibur because it physically doesn't exist in this time period), Shiki's ability allows him to cut or kill that object's reason of existence..and clearly if something has no reason in the confines of the universe and reality to exist then it can't - It's like killing a puppet, a puppet's reason for existence is its master/controller. If he is dead it has no reason to move and is consequently considered 'dead'.

Roa said that Shiki's ability and his are the same - Incorrect because Roa extinguishes people's LIFE. He cannot kill lifeless things - Shiki can deny anything's reason to exist, which kind of screws up what was said in Kagetsu Tohya's sidestory that coincided with Akiha's storyline.

After that huge dribble to my main point, it's explained in the Farside Moon story that Akiha gave her life to Shiki, so he unlike normal humans is something that has minimal to no life... which means that where a normal human might be able to sustain their sanity by utilising their life force, shiki has none to drive him and can barely resist (As opposed to the 'demon' Nanaya Shiki who KICKS ASS).


spoiler over. ^_^
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Unread postby Chronowraith » August 26th, 2007, 7:16 am

iclim4 wrote:
Chronowraith wrote:well i think for the tree->bed question it has to do with how things are defined. the existence of the tree is dead when it becomes the bed, however the existence of the bed is very much there. therefore it is possible to kill the bed.


i don't think that how it works
remember when shiki became crazy, in his room all the lines were annoying him, so he cut all of them(except the walls and bed i guess or else akiha, hisui or kohaku could come in), so if he cut the chair for example and it breaks into 7 pieces, its a "killed" chair, but the existence of the chair parts still exists, now if we go by your theory, even if he killed the chair more lines would appear on the parts, which would have drove shiki insane cause the lines would have multiplied every time he kills an inanimate object in his room.

But there isn't anything that says that wasn't the case. There are lines he can't see so it could be that the lines on a 'killed' chair are on a level beyond his immediate comprehension. Besides, the same argument can come up with living beings. Sure, they can cease to have a life force, but it doesn't show him lines on their remains (or at least we are never told about them).

This is all speculation of course and I doubt anyone but Nasu can really give us an answer. Or it could also be that there is no answer and it should just be accepted.
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Unread postby chasmirror » August 27th, 2007, 6:48 pm

Okay, there seems to be a misunderstanding, and maybe I can clarify things up a bit.

First of all, the lines that Shiki see are NOT the DEATH. They are the connection between the DEATH POINTS, which are also the object's weakest spot, or where its living force is at the weakest.

So when Shiki destroyed the bed in the hospital, he didn't do it by invoking its death, and of course, he could not see its death points. What he did, in fact, is to trace the lines which caused damage, and the total damage he caused was enough for the bed to "die."

If you think about a human, when someone stabs a person, he or she dies because of the loss of blood, or the damage done to his or her organ. It's not the stabbing itself that kills him or her, but what the stabbing causes to happen to the body. This is also the same with the case of the hospital bed. Shiki traced all those lines where the bed is at its weakest, and the bed sustained too much damage in total to maintain itself, and ultimately failed to stand.

But when Shiki "killed" the earth later in the game, what he did was to "invoke" its death, which is why it only took him one shot. If he was to use the lines, he would have had to trace many lines before the earth would fail. However, since he used the point, he only needed one shot to destroy, and "kill," the earth.
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Unread postby Raw » August 27th, 2007, 8:08 pm

I agree with a lot of answer here, specially with chas. But i believe there's still a very big incognita. As many have stated or questioned, when shiki kills a non living thing by cutting its lines, does this new pieces have lines themselves?

I believe that yes, in fact, when someone or some entity, as the Earth, give it a meaning of existence, it gains its lines and dots. However, differing from chas, i believe the dots don't depict the spots where life force is the weakest, because this doesn't include death in a nonliving object; therefore i believe the dots show the spots where things have the less meaning, or maybe the weakest spot, like a controversy or paradox, in its general meaning or reason to exist.

And also, as an extra thought, Kara no Kyoukai Shiki's (the girl) can obliterate thoughts and power (as i was informed), this things having an abstract existence without purpose or reason, so, her ability would something more, not just more powerful.
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Unread postby chasmirror » August 28th, 2007, 8:50 pm

Raw wrote:I believe that yes, in fact, when someone or some entity, as the Earth, give it a meaning of existence, it gains its lines and dots. However, differing from chas, i believe the dots don't depict the spots where life force is the weakest, because this doesn't include death in a nonliving object; therefore i believe the dots show the spots where things have the less meaning, or maybe the weakest spot, like a controversy or paradox, in its general meaning or reason to exist.


Actually, that is not quite what I meant.
What I meant was that the dots, or the points, or whatever you want to call them, are the points of the object's DEATH. It is the LINES where the life force is the weakest, which makes sense since they do connect the points of death. So Shiki basically destroys the object's form when tracing the lines, and kills it when stabbing the dots. They are similar in nature, just the opposite in order. By tracing lines, Shiki destroys the form which in turn kills the object. When he stabs the dot, Shiki kills it, which results in the destruction of its form.

Also, the dots that Shiki sees are the points of the object's death, not its weakest point. Once stabbed, that is it. The dots doesn't cause the greatest damage to the object. It INVOKES death, which is what makes Shiki's eyes so impressive. This is the official setting of Tsukihime. I am not making this up.

As for as Shiki in Kara no Kyoukai, or the girl Shiki as I will refer from here on, Tsukihime Shiki and the girl Shiki basically sees the same thing, just by different methods. Tsukihime Shiki already had a special set of eyes passed down on his Nanaya family, which can see things that cannot be seen, and when he experienced death, the eyes evolved into what they are now. In case of the girl Shiki, she was connected to the Origin of All Things since birth(why and how were not explicitly explained in the novel, except that she is born with it.). So she understands and sees the death on everything, including abstract things, at a much less cost than Tsukihime Shiki.

The reason the girl Shiki can see death of things that Tsukihime Shiki cannot is the difference in capacity. Although Tsukihime Shiki has special eyes, he still has to use his own brain to process the death of an object. So Tsukihime Shiki cannot see death on things that he himself cannot understand the concept of its death. The girl Shiki is different. She can basically understand anything's death by just accessing her connection to the Origin. Her brain does not have to understand because she is already connected to the gigantic supercomputer called the Origin. So she can see death on things even though herself does not really understand it
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Unread postby Raw » August 29th, 2007, 4:42 am

Mmm, about what you said, i would like to comment some more, even if it's supposedly the cannon setting. I was wondering just now, what if the dots covering an object, are the points that hold together the meaning of that particular thing?

You stated that he can see Death. But non living things do have lines, so life force on those lines? I don't think so. Maybe the concept of death that Nasu took is about the end of existence, or maybe is just a translation thingie, because then, what would happen to an non living object that's cut apart? I don't think it has life force to begin with. It does have a purpose or a reason to exist, and i think that's what Shiki kills or obliterates, the meaning behind something. So when a someone is stabbed, as he has no more meaning in the world, it just turns into non living matter, which may have another purpose itself (I believe it is a slow process, seeing that stabbed people have enough time to whimper or to say something, as Sacchin or Roa).


Of course, if i could see Nasu response, i would shut the hell up, and not discuss it anymore. There's still the possibility of Nasu just didn't caring enough about plot holes, but i would like to know if this is covered with cannon information, so i can rest in peace.
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