Shiki's Eyes of Death Perception

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JimmyT64
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Unread post by JimmyT64 » May 13th, 2008, 10:06 am

Indeed, however, Roa/SHIKI himself says that he only "grazed" the point, lessening the effect. Roa/SHIKI still thought Shiki would die, just not as quickly.

However, it's almost certain that he also sees lines - when they first fight in Arcuied's route, Shiki notes that the strange, bandaged man (Roa/SHIKI) is aiming for the lines on his body.

I seem to remember Shiki noting something odd about that fight, but I can't remember what....
Tsukihime drinking game. 1. Every time a word or a phrase is repeated 3 or more times, take a drink (eg. This chair).
2. Every time Shiki claims not to understand something already explained, take a drink
3. Every time Shiki doesn't realize someone is hitting on him, take a drink.
4. Every time someone who should be dead, isn't, take a drink.
5. Every time Shiki does something ridiculous with points\lines.

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 13th, 2008, 11:41 am

Nychi002 wrote: Please cite where it's said that Roa/SHIKI (シキ) can see dots as well. Because I don't recall anywhere where its said that he also saw dots on living beings. If I'm wrong then I apologize in advance.
Actually, this information is from the Tsukihime Dokuhon and the Character Material published separately by Type-Moon. They hold more detailed explanations and settings about the characters and other related materials. The information floating on the net about the Dead Apostles that are not revealed in the game is usually from these materials.

According to them, the reason Roa/SHIKI could have obtained the eyes is the repeated reincarnation of Roa, having experienced death firsthand numerous times. However, because SHIKI, the new body for Roa, did not have the the Clear Eyes(not sure this is the right translation, but the meaning is close enough) that are passed down in the Nanaya bloodline, his version of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception became incomplete, and it can only see death(both dots AND lines) on living objects.

As for not killing Shiki immediately, it probably has a lot to do with the fact that Roa/SHIKI has sadistic side, especially when SHIKI personality is stronger. SHIKI wanted to make Shiki suffer for stealing his identity. Also, because Shiki can also see the lines that Roa/SHIKI sees, he could evade the attack more easily, knowing where it might strike.

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Unread post by Nychi002 » May 13th, 2008, 5:59 pm

chasmirror wrote:Actually, this information is from the Tsukihime Dokuhon and the Character Material published separately by Type-Moon. They hold more detailed explanations and settings about the characters and other related materials. The information floating on the net about the Dead Apostles that are not revealed in the game is usually from these materials.
Yeah, the problem with that is few others have access to those books or even good translations of their contents so its very difficult to check and see if information can be verified, if anything is being omitted, misquoted, mistranslated, or just made up and incorrectly cited. I'm not trying to doubt you but I do hold a valid point.

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 13th, 2008, 8:34 pm

Nychi002 wrote:Yeah, the problem with that is few others have access to those books or even good translations of their contents so its very difficult to check and see if information can be verified, if anything is being omitted, misquoted, mistranslated, or just made up and incorrectly cited. I'm not trying to doubt you but I do hold a valid point.
Well, if you don't want to believe it, it is up to you. I wasn't trying to invalidate you anyway. Just pointing out that the official explanations show a little different point of views than yours.

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Unread post by abscess » May 13th, 2008, 11:10 pm

Nychi002
I must say some people's comments sounded like they were being pulled out of their @$$ because there was little proof or evidence backing the claim.
You be right, me mate! In fact that's what I have been doin' almost all this time ('sides from asking some questions, 'course). In my case I did say that I am only THEORIZING JUST FOR FUN with very little info available out here and goofing a lot with it and even trying to force it in the hypothesis I came up with via changing it to adapt it to official/available info from Type-Moon, other users and this malfunctioning brain o' mine.
cashmirror
The lines are different. They are the places where the object can easily be broken or lose its shape. Incidentally, the lines also connect the death points to each other. Makes sense, since this means that the places closer to its death is where it is the most vulnerable. However, the lines are NOT death. They can only cause the destruction of the object's form.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_E ... Perception
► Show Spoiler
Since Shiki can see two different things (although related) that he is not meant to be able to see (lines and points) and both have a different effects, then it could be said that Shiki has two powers:
► Show Spoiler
Nychi002
Now "Death of concept" means entire concept-including the soul. Why? Because a soul ispart of a person's concept. Its a part of that being. To destroy or erase their concept would include everything about them
I'm partially with you on this one. I agree with you that Shiki must do something to the soul and affect it in a way that it no longer is what it used to be before the attack, but that would happen when he
► Show Spoiler
the guy, not by
► Show Spoiler
him/her (I think I said earlier that if he
► Show Spoiler
he would be affecting the soul, but I'm correcting it now by saying it could only happen when
► Show Spoiler
). If
► Show Spoiler
not necessarily a vampire or anything supernatural, then it must include the soul.

Why I say that I partially agree with you is that you say that erasing the concept of someone it would mean erasing everything about them. By everything I understand that it means ALL stuff, even the history the person had, past and any memory left of the victim that someone (family, friends, enemies, acquaintances, etc.) has about him/her. That is not the case here.

Since I don't need to re-use Taro's case in this moment I'll stay with in-game events to explain why this is wrong.
► Show Spoiler
Getting back to Shiki's eyes, just to make something clear, SHiki being able to affect the soul DOES NOT necessarily mean he has "Eyes of Soul Perception" or that he has those too. If we get in a very pragmatic way of thinking, then SHiki's eyes shouldn't be named "Eyes of Death Perception" because
► Show Spoiler
Just to further prove my point:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_E ... Perception
► Show Spoiler
You sure have noticed that I didn't say a thing about my beloved SPs and ESPs. Fret not my fellow posters! For I shall post a bit of an update to my theory some time in the future (perhaps)! And if it's gawd's Will, I'll perfect it ('wouldn't count on it, really)! It's just that I'm too lazy to type about them right now...

To not break this tradition. I, again, have some questions
Off Topic
1.- It's about Tsukihime English v1.2. In the news section it says "[...] also adds three mini-stories as the third easter egg [...]". I'm a bit at a loss here. What easter eggs?? and what mini-stories?? were those left out from the original Tsukihime in v1.1 or something like that??

2.- Is there a place where I can read Kara no Kyoukai? In a translated form, of course.

3.- This might seem like a n00b quesiton but, is it ever mentioned in which city it all happens?
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_E ... Perception
► Show Spoiler
4.-
► Show Spoiler

Nychi002
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Unread post by Nychi002 » May 14th, 2008, 4:25 am

chasmirror wrote:
Nychi002 wrote:Yeah, the problem with that is few others have access to those books or even good translations of their contents so its very difficult to check and see if information can be verified, if anything is being omitted, misquoted, mistranslated, or just made up and incorrectly cited. I'm not trying to doubt you but I do hold a valid point.
Well, if you don't want to believe it, it is up to you. I wasn't trying to invalidate you anyway. Just pointing out that the official explanations show a little different point of views than yours.
Oh no, I quite agree. I'll be happy to accept official explanations. They are after canon and I, as a fan, refuse to argue with what the creators themselves have decided. All I was saying is that you're the only one with this information so it can't be verified. If others who had this information would say "Yes, that is true" it would be more supportive to your case. If there's a link that contains the translations of these books could you please provide it or could you tell me the name of a vendor that sells it? I'm sure there are others here as well that would like to look at Tsukihime Dokuhon as well.
abscess wrote:
Nychi002
Now "Death of concept" means entire concept-including the soul. Why? Because a soul is part of a person's concept. Its a part of that being. To destroy or erase their concept would include everything about them
I'm partially with you on this one. I agree with you that Shiki must do something to the soul and affect it in a way that it no longer is what it used to be before the attack, but that would happen when he
► Show Spoiler
the guy, not by
► Show Spoiler
him/her (I think I said earlier that if he
► Show Spoiler
he would be affecting the soul, but I'm correcting it now by saying it could only happen when
► Show Spoiler
). If
► Show Spoiler
not necessarily a vampire or anything supernatural, then it must include the soul.

Why I say that I partially agree with you is that you say that erasing the concept of someone it would mean erasing everything about them. By everything I understand that it means ALL stuff, even the history the person had, past and any memory left of the victim that someone (family, friends, enemies, acquaintances, etc.) has about him/her. That is not the case here.
Ok I didn't mean for the word "everything" to taken quite so literally. Yes of course memories of Roa/SHIKI will still exist but those are things that belong to other people. What I meant by "erasing" is that things of that particular being is voided such as his body, soul, etc... Of course events and memories would have still ocured. I'm sorry for the confusion as it was my fault.
abscess wrote:Getting back to Shiki's eyes, just to make something clear, SHiki being able to affect the soul DOES NOT necessarily mean he has "Eyes of Soul Perception" or that he has those too. If we get in a very pragmatic way of thinking, then SHiki's eyes shouldn't be named "Eyes of Death Perception" because
► Show Spoiler
Yes, well also consider that "death" itself is an abstract concept. What is "death"? You can't hold it, touch it, feel it. So how does one see "death". In order to see something like a concept it must first be represented in a form that can be comprehended by the human mind. Shiki's eyes allow him to see the pre-determined "death" or destruction (both abstract terms or ideas) of an object/entity expressed in the form of lines and dots.

It's the same with math. You can't touch or feel a number like "3". It's not physical or tangible. All "3" is is an idea. The lines that form the shape we recognize as "3" is nothing more than a representation of an abstract concept. The lines and dots that Shiki sees are also representations of an abstract concept that his brain has chosen to express as such so that he can comprehend it better.
abscess wrote: Just to further prove my point:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_E ... Perception
► Show Spoiler
I see striking a point or cutting the lines as more of setting off a trigger or switch telling the world "This entity has just been voided. We should "kill" it in order to make things right or the whole system will go into chaos". Don't quote me though as I was partially having fun with that. But it sounds like from the above text once something has been erased or "existence made null" would be a better term, the "system" that is the world (I use the term system figuratively, as not to be mis-understood) must correct the error. The "system" does this by bringing "death" to the destroyed entity as a result. I believe I stated this in a previous post:
nychi002 wrote:Death is more of a side effect that occurs after the object/entity breaks or its existence is erased. Think of the term "cause and effect". Cause-lines are traced. Effect-object/entity breaks apart. End result-death.
Last edited by Nychi002 on May 14th, 2008, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abscess
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Unread post by abscess » May 14th, 2008, 4:54 am

Nychi002 wrote:
abscess wrote:Getting back to Shiki's eyes, just to make something clear, SHiki being able to affect the soul DOES NOT necessarily mean he has "Eyes of Soul Perception" or that he has those too. If we get in a very pragmatic way of thinking, then SHiki's eyes shouldn't be named "Eyes of Death Perception" because
► Show Spoiler
Yes, well also consider that "death" itself is an abstract concept. What is "death"? You can't hold it, touch it, feel it. So how does one see "death". In order to see something like a concept it must first be represented in a form that can be comprehended by the human mind. Shiki's eyes allow him to see the pre-determined "death" or destruction (both abstract terms or ideas) of an object/entity expressed in the form of lines and dots.

It's the same with math. You can't touch or feel a number like "3". It's not physical or tangible. All "3" is is an idea. The lines that form the shape we recognize as "3" is nothing more than a representation of an abstract concept. The lines and dots that Shiki sees are also representations of an abstract concept that his brain has chosen to express as such so that he can comprehend it better.

I see striking a point or cutting the lines as more of setting off a trigger or switch telling the world "This entity has just been voided. We should "kill" it in order to make things right or the whole system will go into chaos". Don't quote me though as I was partially having fun with that. But it sounds like from the above text once something has been erased or "existence made null" would be a better term, the "system" that is the world (I use the term system figuratively, as not to be mis-understood) must correct the error. The "system" does this by bringing "death" to the destroyed entity as a result. I believe I stated this in a previous post:
Yeah. We seem to agree on these matters. But it wasn't you I was refering to when talking about Shiki's eyes of "soul" perception.
Miraploy wrote:Again, I think the discussion on soul or supersouls misses the point. Shiki's eyes are not eyes of soul, but eyes of death. Shiki doesn't do anything to the soul but merely cause the object which he stabs to die. Now this may mean the soul is deceased, or it may not.
I was actually referring to this post by Miraploy. Miraploy seems to have thought that Shiki must have had some mystic eyes that allowed him to see the soul or something like that (please, correct me if I'm mistaken). I just felt it was needed to clear the point and say what shiki does. I think that would help me to develop further my warped hypothesis I talked about earlier and maybe help some reader that is just passing by.

P.S: If for some reason you (I'm talking in general here, not to an individual) feel attacked in a personal way by something I said, I apologize. That was not my intention.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by Miraploy » May 14th, 2008, 5:48 am

I think what you quoted actually says the exact opposite, that he doesn't see the soul. :?

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Unread post by zweiterversuch » May 14th, 2008, 8:43 am

I think the same thing
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btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!

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Unread post by abscess » May 14th, 2008, 8:46 pm

Yeah. I wrote it the wrong way and it seems I said something I didn't want to say. Sorry.

What I wanted to say is that Miraploy (from what I understand) said that Shiki doesn't have "eyes of 'soul' perception" so he doesn't see the soul and for that reason he can't cause any effect, at least not directly, to the soul. For that he should have the so called "eyes of 'soul' perception", which he doesn't.

I said Shiki doesn't precisely SEE the soul, nor death or future. As Nychi002 said, what he sees are triggers that perhaps "activates" a message that tells the world to kill this person (when stabbing a point) or he directly erases the information the soul possesses and the world gets a data package (or stops recieving data packages) from the soul, so the world kills the dude. What happens to the soul? I don't know, maybe it is completely and utterly destroyed after that, or it may go back to the Root (without any information on it's past user) and wait until it recieves an order to be used by another living human (or something with a brain).

I have from time to time some problems with english because it ain't my mother language and I, most of the time, don't sleep that well and suffer from lapsus of attention when I do something (writing in this case) or I just write badly sometimes. Just so you know why that happened, although I don't think it's that important.


P.S: Me be kinda n00b in this. How do I put an avatar? checked the faq and don't understand...
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by OceanBlue » May 14th, 2008, 9:30 pm

To upload an avatar, you need to upload the avatar onto a seperate website [such as Imageshack or Photobucket], go to Profile on the top bar, and type in the address for the image in "Link to off-site Avatar" [It's all the way at the bottom].

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Unread post by Einherjar » May 14th, 2008, 10:29 pm

[quote="abscess"]Yeah. I wrote it the wrong way and it seems I said something I didn't want to say. Sorry.

What I wanted to say is that Miraploy (from what I understand) said that Shiki doesn't have "eyes of 'soul' perception" so he doesn't see the soul and for that reason he can't cause any effect, at least not directly, to the soul. For that he should have the so called "eyes of 'soul' perception", which he doesn't.

I said Shiki doesn't precisely SEE the soul, nor death or future. As Nychi002 said, what he sees are triggers that perhaps "activates" a message that tells the world to kill this person (when stabbing a point) or he directly erases the information the soul possesses and the world gets a data package (or stops recieving data packages) from the soul, so the world kills the dude. What happens to the soul? I don't know, maybe it is completely and utterly destroyed after that, or it may go back to the Root (without any information on it's past user) and wait until it recieves an order to be used by another living human (or something with a brain).

I have from time to time some problems with english because it ain't my mother language and I, most of the time, don't sleep that well and suffer from lapsus of attention when I do something (writing in this case) or I just write badly sometimes. Just so you know why that happened, although I don't think it's that important.

From what I remembered:

Lines: Cause the eventual breakdown.
Point: Remove the object from existence.

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Unread post by Miraploy » May 15th, 2008, 12:52 am

Einherjar wrote:From what I remembered:

Lines: Cause the eventual breakdown.
Point: Remove the object from existence.
Yes, but those are only one in a myriad of ways the lines and points are refered to. The point of the thread is to debate what they mean.

@chasmirror, I finally found some evidence to support my theory about death lines.

After SHIKI stabs Akiha, Shiki looks down at Akiha and says this:
`"----Akiha!@ Hang in there, Akiha||!"@
` Kneeling down, I look over her body.@
` || This is terrible.@
` Her right arm is almost split in two and painted an awful crimson.@
br
`"|| Ah|| Nii-sa|| why|| are you here----"@
br
` Her eyes are hazy.@
` Her shallow breathing, her pale face.@
` || The figure of death stretches across her body.\

`"|| Why, aren't|| you, resting, in your, room|||?"@
`"D----don't talk||!@ We can talk about it later, for now, just don't talk||!"@
`"|| No, ||| I won't|| Nii-san, how long, have you, been, here----"@
` It's spreading.\
` With her bleeding, her lines of death spread across her body.\
Right, lines of death. The lines are predetermined death that becomes easier to see as she approaches death. So there. :wink:

@Nychi002, I partially agree with what you said because it sounds like what I said, but again, it's not existence made null, it's the end of existence. Which in more plebian terms is death.
I said Shiki doesn't precisely SEE the soul, nor death or future. As Nychi002 said, what he sees are triggers that perhaps "activates" a message that tells the world to kill this person (when stabbing a point) or he directly erases the information the soul possesses and the world gets a data package (or stops recieving data packages) from the soul, so the world kills the dude. What happens to the soul? I don't know, maybe it is completely and utterly destroyed after that, or it may go back to the Root (without any information on it's past user) and wait until it recieves an order to be used by another living human (or something with a brain).
I don't understand why you're still arguing that Shiki doesn't see death. The whole game builds up the point that he sees the death, from the explaination of his... death, to the name of his power itself, mystic eyes of death perception. This isn't an arguable point.

Anyway, Nych's trigger, is death. Semantics.

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Unread post by Nychi002 » May 15th, 2008, 4:30 am

Miraploy wrote:@Nychi002, I partially agree with what you said because it sounds like what I said, but again, it's not existence made null, it's the end of existence. Which in more plebian terms is death.
You know that "nullify" means "to end" right? To "nullify existence" is to "end existence". They mean the exact same thing.

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Unread post by Miraploy » May 15th, 2008, 5:22 am

Nychi002 wrote:
Miraploy wrote:@Nychi002, I partially agree with what you said because it sounds like what I said, but again, it's not existence made null, it's the end of existence. Which in more plebian terms is death.
You know that "nullify" means "to end" right? To "nullify existence" is to "end existence". They mean the exact same thing.
If that's what you meant then we're in agreement, and it's fine. :D I thought you were using nullify in a different way. But no matter. :wink:

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 15th, 2008, 5:41 pm

Miraploy wrote: @chasmirror, I finally found some evidence to support my theory about death lines.

After SHIKI stabs Akiha, Shiki looks down at Akiha and says this:
`"----Akiha!@ Hang in there, Akiha||!"@
` Kneeling down, I look over her body.@
` || This is terrible.@
` Her right arm is almost split in two and painted an awful crimson.@
br
`"|| Ah|| Nii-sa|| why|| are you here----"@
br
` Her eyes are hazy.@
` Her shallow breathing, her pale face.@
` || The figure of death stretches across her body.\

`"|| Why, aren't|| you, resting, in your, room|||?"@
`"D----don't talk||!@ We can talk about it later, for now, just don't talk||!"@
`"|| No, ||| I won't|| Nii-san, how long, have you, been, here----"@
` It's spreading.\
` With her bleeding, her lines of death spread across her body.\
Right, lines of death. The lines are predetermined death that becomes easier to see as she approaches death. So there. :wink:
So you won't believe my evidences because there MIGHT be some mistquotes and mistranslation, and you will believe the TRANSLATED game dialogues, which HAPPENS to support your theory?

What I have quoted you before was the OFFICIAL game setting and explanation by NASU KINOKO, the author himself. You can believe all you want. What is not, is not. The lines are NOT the death. They ORIGINATE from the points, the death, but they are NOT it. They are close to it, but not it.

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Unread post by Miraploy » May 15th, 2008, 8:24 pm

I think you might be getting confused. It was Nychi002 who didn't believe your evidence, not me.

I clearly addressed all the points you made, taking into account your evidence and including them in my analysis. NASU KINOKO never said in the OFFICIAL game setting and explaination that the lines are NOT death. Wherever your critique of my analysis ORIGINATED from, they are NOT supported.

Now it's time for you to start accepting some counter evidence since we clearly don't have enough official material to make a definitive answer.

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 15th, 2008, 9:38 pm

Miraploy wrote:I think you might be getting confused. It was Nychi002 who didn't believe your evidence, not me.

I clearly addressed all the points you made, taking into account your evidence and including them in my analysis. NASU KINOKO never said in the OFFICIAL game setting and explaination that the lines are NOT death. Wherever your critique of my analysis ORIGINATED from, they are NOT supported.

Now it's time for you to start accepting some counter evidence since we clearly don't have enough official material to make a definitive answer.
Oopsie, my bad.

Still, I am not explaining a theory that the lines are not death. I am merely stating that the OFFICIAL SETTING, illustrated by Tsukihime Dokuhon and Character Material written by Nasu Kinoko AND published by Type-Moon, says the lines are "where the object may break easily", whereas the points "are the death itself", period. The lines are not related to the part of the object, but the object itself. Basically the lines originate from the dots, which makes sense, since what is closer to death than the destruction of one's physical form?

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 15th, 2008, 9:54 pm

Nychi002 wrote: Oh no, I quite agree. I'll be happy to accept official explanations. They are after canon and I, as a fan, refuse to argue with what the creators themselves have decided. All I was saying is that you're the only one with this information so it can't be verified. If others who had this information would say "Yes, that is true" it would be more supportive to your case. If there's a link that contains the translations of these books could you please provide it or could you tell me the name of a vendor that sells it? I'm sure there are others here as well that would like to look at Tsukihime Dokuhon as well.
Sadly, there is no English translation of the whole book, since it is, well, a whole book. One would have to scan the whole thing, translate it, and then edit the scan by basically re-writing the whole book. I've only read bits and pieces off from the Japanese or Korean sites. Dokuhon by itself spans about 260 pages. Don't ask me! :lol: I ain't doing it.

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Unread post by Nychi002 » May 16th, 2008, 6:37 am

chasmirror wrote:Sadly, there is no English translation of the whole book, since it is, well, a whole book. One would have to scan the whole thing, translate it, and then edit the scan by basically re-writing the whole book. I've only read bits and pieces off from the Japanese or Korean sites. Dokuhon by itself spans about 260 pages. Don't ask me! :lol: I ain't doing it.
OK, you said you never read the whole thing. Isn't possible that the pieces you did read may have been edited or have parts omitted? Citing a resource without having the entire resource ready for examination is, academically speaking, bad research. Now again I'm not saying that you are wrong or that Dokuhon is wrong; again there's no verification that the information being cited is accurate either, which may or may not be an issue.

Anyway enough of that. If you want to continue citing Dokuhon that's fine with me. All I was asking to begin with was verification/confirmation of the text being cited.
Last edited by Nychi002 on May 16th, 2008, 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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