ScriptDoc wrote:Also, at least in Melty Blood, we haven't even gotten into space and formatting issues. I think that'll be the ultimate deciding factor - how much space we have available to write in.
ScriptDoc wrote:First, from a practical standpoint, I think they would be confusing to the audience. They won't know what most of these foreign terms mean, and since they're intended to describe fictional concepts and beings, that doesn't leave people with many context clues to help them figure it out. You've made a convincing case for your terms in your post, but I don't think you'll be able to do the same in the game itself. And I don't think publishing a separate guide for the game would be a good idea. I'd like our work to be able to stand on its own and be accessible to as many people as possible. Again, my position is slightly different from yours since Melty Blood, being a fighting game, is going to attract a different audience than Tsukihime will.
ScriptDoc wrote:Second, I think we have to consider these terms from the standpoint of the characters. This was one of the big arguments I made for 'deathsight,' because it seems like a simple term that people might use to describe his power. It's catchy, can be yelled out in an emergency, and avoids some of the stickier issues I mentioned before. Some of the lengthier terms you've used seem like they're more complicated than the characters would probably like. I can't comment on Aoko, though. I don't know her that well, and Atlas Academy encourages, in fact demands, that its members create their own knowledge instead of drawing it from a common pool, so we can expect that Sion's terminology might differ from Aoko's.
ScriptDoc wrote:Also sometimes, like in the case of 'Black Key,' I think it's not necessary to go too far afield. Black Key is a perfectly understandable English term, and it's a closer translation.
ScriptDoc wrote:I use 'society' mostly when talking about the magical groups. Melty Blood has more of an alchemical perspective than a magical one. So when I translated that term I was thinking of the more modern secret societies of alchemy and the occult - the Priory of Sion, for example - rather than councils of magicians from ancient times.
ScriptDoc wrote:I chose Marvel Phantasm originally, as opposed to Marble Phantasm, because it seemed to describe the impossible nature of the effect better. However, I also respect the rationale of the choosing of marbles, and 'Reality Marvel' doesn't fit too well, so I'd have to say we might ought to stick with Marble.
ScriptDoc wrote:I used 'Knights of the Church' instead of Holy Knights. I'm trying to avoid the issue of whether 'the Church' of Tsukihime refers to the same Catholic Church that we know in our universe or whether it's something different, so I toss around 'the Church' a lot. And I think the 'holiness' of Tsukihime's 'Church' is kind of questionable. Since you seem to be a sci-fi buff, you can say the term is based on The Elenium, if you want.
I've used Burial Agency. I understand your comments about the Inquisition, but I think the Burial Agency is really fairly different. It seems to be more of a clandestine group, and doesn't seem interested in converting anyone. Also, I'd like to avoid too many parallels between Tsukihime's 'Church' and the Catholic Church of our universe, as I said before.
ScriptDoc wrote:You're dead on about 'agent' but I've actually substituted 'Executor' in most cases simply because Sion tends to address Ciel by title, and calling someone 'agent' without their name, as in 'Special Agent Smith,' sounds kind of funny in English. I don't know how this term is used in Tsukihime. I have no problem using 'agent' as a plain noun, and in fact I have used it a few times when Sion used the term before coming face to face with Ciel. I usually just made it more specific by saying 'agent of the Church.'
ScriptDoc wrote:Hope that helps, but I imagine this'll really be a discussion for when we're done, before a final patch is released.
gp32 wrote:Original term: 吸血種
EvoSpace TL: Vampiric Creature
gp32 TL: Vampiric
Rationale: Why German, anyway? (...) (b) in Fate, Tohsaka Rin uses German as the language of magecraft; (c) Rin, in several of Fate's endings, travels to London to become part of the Conclave of Magi there; (...)
Original term: 空想具現化
Romanization: kuusou gugenka
EvoSpace TL: Image Materialization/Marble Phantasm
gp32 TL: Ex Nihilo Quicquid Fit
Original term: 異端者
EvoSpace TL: Heretic
gp32 TL: Apostate
Original term: 埋葬機関
Romanization: maisou kikan
EvoSpace TL: Burial/Entombment Agency
gp32 TL: The Inquisition
Original term: 騎士団
EvoSpace TL: Knights
gp32 TL: Holy Knights
Rationale: I added the 'holy' to differentiate them from the other knights that we find in the worlds of both Tsukihime and Fate.
Original term: 火葬式典
Romanization: kasou shikiten
EvoSpace TL: Cremation Ritual
gp32 TL: Cremation Mass
Rationale: The term "ritual" is more associated with the dark arts than it is with the Church. The most common "ritual" that the Roman Catholic Church is, of course, the Mass. Mass is also held for a person's burial or remembrance, so this is appropriate.
Original term: 混血
EvoSpace TL: Hybrid
gp32 TL: Tiefling
Original term: 退魔組織
Romanization: taima soshiki
EvoSpace TL: Demon Hunter Organization
gp32 TL: Demon Hunters' Guild
Original term: 反転衝動
Romanization: hanten shoudou
EvoSpace TL: Inversion/Reactionary Impulse
gp32 TL: Conversion Reaction
Rationale: This is actually a psychatric term that most often refers to the somatization of psychiatric issues. In any case, what is true of real conversion reactions and the game's 反転衝動 is that in both, the person suffering from one does and says things that he or she normally would not.
Original term: 魔術協会
Romanization: majutsu kyokai
EvoSpace TL: Mage's Association
gp32 TL: Conclave of Magi
tjm wrote:I'm not really clear on how you intend this to work; 吸血種 is presumably a noun in the cases where it's used, but "Vampiric" is an adjective; it would sound very strange to say "He is a Vampiric". I appreciate that there is a little precedent for using adjectives that describe conditions as nouns describing those suffering from conditions, but I'm not at all convinced in this case.
tjm wrote:Alright, one more comment on the German. ^_^ Speaking as someone who has spent a great deal of his life in academic establishments in London, I can say with confidence that just because Rin comes from a tradition that uses German, this should not be taken as an indication that the London Conclave are likely to use it; far from it.
British academia (and British hermetic tradition, from which I think we can assume the London Conclave will draw) have always been highly xenophobic, linguistically speaking. English and Latin would be used exclusively; indeed I must admit, even English terms would be a relatively new addition. If the members we've seen are anything to go by, though, I think its fair to say that the London Conclave are fairly forward-looking (by Mage standards), and would probably be fond of fancy, impressive-sounding plausibly English words.
tjm wrote:Having said "Latin", though... this is far too unwieldy. Surely these are meant to be the short, quick-reference terms that in tense scenes will be flying around three-to-a-sentence? "Ex Nihilo Quicquid Fit" might be fine for a poetic technical term in an academic paper, but can you imagine what Pokemon would have been like if Ash had been yelling "Pikachu! Use Ex Nihilo Quicquid Fit!" all the time? *shudder* I'm not saying the terms need to be short and pithy, but if they don't roll off the tongue at least as easily as the Japanese ones (to a western speaker!), then I think something is going wrong.
tjm wrote:Depending on how it's used, I would be tempted to just go for "Heretic", here. An apostate is very specifically one who was once a member of the faith but departed from it; Ciel is certainly an apostate, but I would not be surprised if many the game describes with this term are not; that is, were never members of the Church in the first place. I guess translating it differently in different contexts might be the best answer.
tjm wrote:I would have assumed the Entombment Agency to be a subgroup of the Inquisition, rather than the entirety of it... though I suppose that as long as the rest of the Inquisition never turn up (and I don't expect that), it won't make much of a difference....
tjm wrote:Have you tried looking up what term is used in Japanese for the historical Inquisition?
tjm wrote:I'm not sure that's really necessary; after all, you'll find very few knights that aren't (or at least don't consider themselves) holy. After all, that's what seperates them from just being slightly noble blokes with big swords.
tjm wrote:The Mass is not the cremation, though, it is something that is held alongside. I doubt the 火葬式典 involves much bread and wine, certainly. What's wrong with just "Cremation" (which is what the ceremony would usually be called) or "Cremation Rites", or even "Cremation Sacrament"? (I strongly suspect cremation probably isn't one of the sacraments, to be honest, but I won't tell if you won't...)
tjm wrote:...no. Just no. ^_^; It's a horrible term of highly questionable parentage to begin with; I'd hate to see it spread. Surely there are better terms for the offspring of Demons and Humans? (After all, Angels got Nephilim, surely there's some potential for equal rights arguments...)
tjm wrote:I feel this could be improved upon... Guilds generally weren't centered around families, the way the Demon Hunters are. To go for the very simple answer, how would "Demon Hunter Families" fit in the contexts where the term is used?
tjm wrote:Again, if possible it might be worth checking how Japanese Psychological literature translates "Conversion Reaction"; it could quite easily have been precisely what Nasu was referring to.
tjm wrote:I don't know; whilst a nice term, "conclave" is specifically religious. It is occasionally used in non-ecclesiastical circles, but it's primarily used in the context of the Conclave of Cardinals. It seems implausible, given their long-standing enmity with the Church, that Magi would use such a term.
tjm wrote:私立浅上女学院 (Akiha's private school)
枯渇庭園 (Satsuki's 固有結界)
Also, at least in Melty Blood, we haven't even gotten into space and formatting issues. I think that'll be the ultimate deciding factor - how much space we have available to write in.
ScriptDoc wrote:But once again I'd like to point out that Geneon is releasing an English version of the Tsukihime anime in the US. Not all of the terms are likely to be mentioned in the anime (any bootleggers that can confirm this?) but some are, certainly the major ones, and we probably ought to find out what the official terms are going to be before we jump at each other's throats over this.
NuAngel wrote:ENG: "What time is it?" vs. SPAN: "Que ahora es?" (The hour is?)
'Que ahora es?' (with accents and inverted question marks placed appropriatedly )
ScriptDoc wrote:Regardless of how well Geneon does their translation, whatever they do is what's going to be the official story in the US. Even if they rename everybody and set it in the town of Reedington, that's how it is. I think there should be at least one patch that conforms to Geneon's terms, although nothing's wrong with a 'Director's Cut' or something if we have problems with what they do. But if we don't match their terms I think we'll look a little silly.
TheXev wrote:I believe we would reach a consensus on current terminology right now, so we will know what to implement. Since I am far from qualified to take on such a task, I believe gp32 should organize this. We can leave the non agreeable terms up for debating and solidify what has been agreed upon.
tjm wrote:One motivation is that the audience should like the terms used. If the translation uses a translation of "kuusou gugenka" that's signifcantly more unwieldy or less appropriate than "Marble Phantasm", then most people are just going to keep thinking of it as "Marble Phantasm"; they'll most likely be irritated by the constant use of the other term. If people aren't going to like and use the term, it might as well have just been left untranslated.
tjm wrote:Another motivation is accuracy; a desire that the translated terms should contain as precisely as possible the exact meaning and information contained in the original terms. This is good for the analyser audience, the people who want to work out precisely how the Tsukihime world works and what it all means, without having to delve into the Japanese themselves.
tjm wrote:And the other motivation is authenticity. The player of the English version should have as near as possible precisely the same experience as a player of the Japanese version. That is, the translated terms should feel to an english reader the same way the originals felt to a japanese reader; similar levels of "technicality", similar levels of "archaity", and at a first glance at least they should convery the same information. (Judging this aspect is extremely difficult without the assistance of a native Japanese speaker.)
tjm wrote:I think that the question of how to balance these three motivations will need to be settled before you'll start to get consensus on which terms to use; unfortunately, in most cases, no one term is going to be ideal for all three purposes.
gp32 wrote:This is my main motivation, and probably why I originally wanted to translate the terms into German.
tjm wrote:gp32 wrote:This is my main motivation, and probably why I originally wanted to translate the terms into German.
Well, I think you may be overestimating the obscurity of the japanese terms.
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