Tsukihime vocabulary thread

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Unread postby ScriptDoc » June 24th, 2004, 3:32 pm

Not to be unhelpful, but so far in Melty Blood, deathsight has only come up a couple of times, as Sion muses on Shiki's abilities. She does use the usual Japanese words.

Re the whole Marble issue, you might note the translation I used in the manual. I don't know how it appears in Tsukihime, but in the MB manual, it had the kanji you mention above, and then Marble Phantasm spelled out in katakana. The kanji I translated simply as 'Dreams Become Reality.' My point is that whenever something is in katakana, I think the only debate is over l/r, b/v, and other confusing sounds. Otherwise, they've given us the English. Kanji on the other hand, does need some interpretation. I would say use 'Reality Marble' when it's printed that way in katakana and when it's in kanji, use the translation for the kanji. I think the term it's describing would literally be 'pocket dimension,' but if it appears in MB I imagine I would call it 'My World' or something like that. "My World - Lair of the Beast!" "My World - Withered Garden!" Sounds good to me.

And concerning the beguiling eyes - I translated it as 'the hypnotic gaze of the vampire.' In this case I do think gaze works because it is more of an active power than Shiki's. The eyes are what affects the opponent here, whereas with Shiki, it is the knife that does the work and his eyes just let him see where to cut.
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Unread postby gp32 » June 26th, 2004, 3:15 pm

I think what we agree on is this:
- We need to see how Geneon handles its translation.

What we still disagree on is this:
- How we are going to handle the terms that don't appear in the TV series

What we need is this:
- Someone needs to watch over the Tsukihime TV series again, and note which terms are used, and which terms aren't. This isn't helpful to us at the very moment, but it probably will be much later.

It also strikes me that if, in the TV series, Geneon is internally consistent about their term translations, then it will be a simple matter of us following suit. At this point I'm half-hoping that they decide just to use flat-out romaji transliterations for all the neologisms they encounter.

Anyway. Due to real-life work, I'm going to be unavailable from 6/28 - 7/9.
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Unread postby TheXev » June 27th, 2004, 2:22 am

Well, this is a thought I had reading over the thread again in regards to the ?deathsight? issue. I agree with ScriptDoc that in Melty Blood, these terms can be shouted between characters, and because of that we run into an interesting issue of whether to use deathsight all of the way threw the translation. My answer to this is no, we shouldn?t, we should use two different terms depending on context. Now allow me to explain my reasoning.

Everyday in English, we find ourselves using simplified terms to describe complex ideas. Instead of saying ?The apples texture is appealingly smooth,? we would rather say ?that apple looks good.? We might think on a higher level with a thought like the first, but we actually end up saying the second to convey the meaning to another person.

Here is how this applies to Tsukihime and Melty Blood both. If the character is sitting there thinking to themselves about their ability, they will be considering the full meaning of each item.

An example, I will take this from the anime (this is from Saikou?s fansub, so its EvoSpace?s translation).
(Ep 3, when Arc wants to see Shiki?s ability).
Arc: ?I want to see it?
(Shiki gets up and walks over to the chair)
(Shiki cuts the chair apart)
Arc: ?The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, I see?

Here it was completely necessary in English to convey the full meaning behind Shiki?s ability

The simplified example:
Arcueid shouts to Shiki: ?Use your death-sight! Hurry!?
If she would have been said ?Use your Mystic Eyes of Death Perception! Hurry!? its completely killing the necessity and urgency of the statement. I would be distracted as a player to read this and I see similar issues in fansubs and in other translations every so offtain.

In short, I?m saying, if the context calls for it to have its full meaning, do it. If the context calls for it to be urgent, shorten the term. This is a reality of English that not many people consider.
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Unread postby ScriptDoc » June 28th, 2004, 4:20 pm

I don't have any problem with that. I'd just try to put in a little cross-reference so that everyone knows deathsight is shorthand for the other term - for instance, when Shiki mentions his power for the first time he could say 'Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, or deathsight, for short" or something like that.

Let's put this thread to rest until we get more info from Geneon, but I'll say one more thing just as food for thought. I think the thing about this whole discussion is that somehow we have the idea that there are these Terms with capital T's. I see a lot of capital letters and phrases being thrown around, and I'm not 100% sure that that's the way these things should be treated. There's a greater significance placed on things that are capitalized. For instance, 'hand me that old book' sounds like there's some old book nearby that I want, whereas 'hand me that Old Book' sounds like it's a key item in your inventory that I need. When capitalized, that suggests it's special, and there's no substitute for it. When in lower case letters, I could just easily say 'ancient tome' or 'ratty paperback' and you'd understand what I meant. The trouble is, we can't really tell in Japanese what's a capitalized special term and what's just a wordy description. So maybe it's not 'Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception' it's just 'Shiki's mystical way of seeing death.' And it might be easier to understand a differing translation - 'Shiki's deathsight' - if you look at it that way.
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Unread postby EvoSpace » July 3rd, 2004, 6:27 am

Wow I'm surprised you guys were working off my list =0
Just an input on couple of thing.

反転衝動 There's actually an official translation for this. The OP movie Haze Moon Edition inside the Kagetsu Toya CD says "Reactionary Impulse" But 1. Can we trust Type-Moon's Engrish and 2. What if Geneon translates it differently, which I think they will...

直死の魔眼 I don't think they always use this full term in the game either. There's a slightly shorter, 直死の眼.

殺し屋 The reason I didn't use Assassin for this is because there's another term for it, 暗殺者. Since it's a term to look down at the members of the 埋葬機関, something like a "hired killer" will be better IMO
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Unread postby tjm » July 3rd, 2004, 9:37 pm

EvoSpace wrote:殺し屋 The reason I didn't use Assassin for this is because there's another term for it, 暗殺者. Since it's a term to look down at the members of the 埋葬機関, something like a "hired killer" will be better IMO

"Hitman", perhaps? Though if it's usually going to be applied to Ciel, that might sound rather awkward....

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Terms used in the Tsukihime Anime

Unread postby DragonNeoReborn » July 5th, 2004, 5:23 pm

Here is a list of the terms used in the Tsukihime manga that geneon may* translate.

EPISODE 1: 反転衝動

Original term: 反転衝動
Romanization: hanten shoudou
EvoSpace TL: Inversion/Reactionary Impulse
gp32 TL: Conversion Reaction

Original term: 吸血鬼
Romanization: kyuuketsuki
EvoSpace TL: Vampire
gp32 TL: Vampire

EPISODE 2: 黒い獣

Original term: 吸血鬼
Romanization: kyuuketsuki
EvoSpace TL: Vampire
gp32 TL: Vampire

Romanization: shinso
EvoSpace TL: True Ancestor
gp32 TL: True Ancestor

EPISODE 3: 直死の魔眼

Original term: 直死の魔眼
Romanization: Chokushi no Magan
EvoSpace TL: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception
ScriptDoc TL: Deathsight
gp32 TL: Todesgestalt Zauberauge

Original term: 真祖
Romanization: shinso
EvoSpace TL: True Ancestor
gp32 TL: True Ancestor

Original term: 死徒
Romanization: shito
EvoSpace TL: Dead Apostle
gp32 TL: Death Apostle

Original term: 教会
Romanization: kyoukai
EvoSpace TL: The Church
gp32 TL: The Church


EPISODE 4: 揺籠の庭

None

EPISODE 5: 空の弓

Original term: 死者
Romanization: shisha
EvoSpace TL: The Dead
gp32 TL: The Dead

Assasian in reference to Nero, but暗殺者 instead of殺し屋

EPISODE 6: 白い夢

Original term: 死者
Romanization: shisha
EvoSpace TL: The Dead
gp32 TL: The Dead

EPISODE 7: 蒼い咎跡

None

EPISODE 8: 檻髪

Original term: 檻髪
Romanization: origami
EvoSpace TL: Imprisoning Hair
gp32 TL: Enfolding Cage of Hair

EPISODE 9:

Original term: 魔
Romanization: ma
EvoSpace TL: Demonic/Magical
gp32 TL: Demonic

Use demonic in refernace to non-human blood

EPISODE 10: 朱の紅月

Original term: 教会
Romanization: kyoukai
EvoSpace TL: The Church
gp32 TL: The Church

EPISODE 11: 凶つ夜

None

EPISODE 12: 月世界

None


*I say may because geneon may possibly, actually most likely, ignore the most apporiate term and instead replace it with common american terms. For example they may make shisha just acolyte or even undead because those are commonly used american terms instead of the dead which would be the most correct term. On a side note I hope revolve will stick to the romanization of the names in case geneon decides to "americanize them".
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Unread postby TheXev » July 7th, 2004, 7:42 pm

I?ve decided to move this thread to a separate forum, and grant the entire board and public access to view this new forum. This way we don?t have anyone browsing the rest of the admin forum, and I don?t have to give anyone who wants to view the thread special permission to simply view it. If anyone objects to this move, please let me know with in the next few days (I?ll move it on Saturday).
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Unread postby EvoSpace » July 28th, 2004, 5:00 am

Hey, I got to see the first public showing of Geneon USA's Tsukihime anime at the San Diego Comicon. They showed the first two episodes subtitled. I noted down how some of the key terms in the show were translated, but I don't know how helpful it is since they might change it in the final release, some already have conflicts with Type-Moon's official lingo, while some are plain wrong.

(Aoko) Mahou tsukai: "Mage"

(title of first episode)hanten shoudou: "Reversal Impulse"

Yumizuka/Yumiduka: "Yumitsuka"

Makihisa: "Masahisa"

Shinso: "True Ancestor"

Famous line of Arcueid: "I'll make you pay for killing me."

(Nero's) tsukaima: "servant"

(Nero's other name)konton: "chaos"

kyuuketsuki: "vampire"
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Unread postby AznTyrant256 » July 29th, 2004, 5:03 am

直死の魔眼 <---- that in chinese seems to be Mystic eye of true death.
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Unread postby EvoSpace » August 3rd, 2004, 3:11 am

Some more from the Geneon DVD flier.

直死の魔眼 - "Mystic Eyes of Death Perception".

And the subtitle of the first DVD, "Life Threads" comes from 死の線, literally line of death, the lines that Shiki sees. It was mentioned on the flier, "He can see the threads that binds life together"
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Unread postby tjm » August 3rd, 2004, 9:15 pm

EvoSpace wrote:And the subtitle of the first DVD, "Life Threads" comes from 死の線, literally line of death, the lines that Shiki sees.

I was afraid of that. Surely one of the main points is that "threads of life" are precisely what Shiki does not see? (Or rather, they're what SHIKI sees, and that is the difference between them?)

I really don't see how they're going to make the end of the anime make sense this way... ah well.

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Unread postby Ryuusoul » September 8th, 2004, 1:14 pm

When I originally read 直死の魔眼, I kind of translated them as the Eyes of Absolute Death (I just left out the Magical or Mystical...thought it was unnecessary). For me, the notion of Absolute Death captured what his eyes see...maybe its just me though.
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Unread postby ScriptKitty » September 17th, 2004, 8:38 am

To be honest, I can't say as I agree with the decision to use German terms... Most of us who would be in your general playing audience don't speak German any better than we speak Japanese. It seems to me like it negates your original translation efforts when you have to explain what your translation means with another translation or readme.

But that's not really the point of this message... I noticed one translation in particular.

EvoSpace TL: Cremation Ritual
gp32 TL: Cremation Mass
Rationale: The term "ritual" is more associated with the dark arts than it is with the Church. The most common "ritual" that the Roman Catholic Church is, of course, the Mass. Mass is also held for a person's burial or remembrance, so this is appropriate.


While I agree that "ritual" doesn't sound like a term you'd hear associated with the Roman Catholic Church, I'm not sure Mass quite fits the feeling of what you're trying to convey. You may think about the term "Cremation Rite". On http://www.dictionary.com, a rite is described as "The prescribed or customary form for conducting a religious or other solemn ceremony: the rite of baptism.", or "A ceremonial act or series of acts: fertility rites."

Also, "Paladin" is technically just a term for a 'paragon of chivalry', or a heroic champion, many people have associated it with holy knights. Just look at Final Fantasy XI (healer knights), Hellsing (Anderson is called a paladin by Integra in his first appearance). I'm not arguing that Holy Knight is a bad translation, but just that Paladin is another possible term.

Also, I appologize if any of these suggestions have been made on previous pages, I was just way too tired to read everything... I probably shouldn't be writing a post like this at 4:40 anyway, but I didn't want to risk forgetting after I've slept like a normal, reasonable human being.
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Unread postby Ryuusoul » September 17th, 2004, 2:10 pm

That's an excellent suggestion...the word "rite" is used extensively within the Catholic church, has the same origins as ritual, but without any negative connotations to that effect (although these connotations are more recent, due to all sorts of horror or fantasy movies and books).
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Unread postby Diaphanus » October 4th, 2004, 6:51 pm

gp32 wrote:Original term: 直死の魔眼
Romanization: Chokushi no Magan
EvoSpace TL: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception
ScriptDoc TL: Deathsight
gp32 TL: Todesgestalt Zauberauge

I came up with a "scientific name" for that:

Euthythanasiae Magicopia (see my signature)

  • substantive: literally, "magical visual condition of direct death"

    • Euthythanasia: literally, "direct death"

      • euthy [εὐθύς]: direct, directly, straight, immediate (translation of 直)

      • thanasi [θάνᾰτος]: death (translation of 死)

      • ae: Latin inflection suffix (feminine, genitive, singular)
    • Magicopia: literally, "magical visual condition"

      • magic [μᾰγῐκός]: magical (translation of 魔)

      • ōpia [ωπίᾱ]: a visual condition or defect of a specified kind (translation of 眼, on the analogy of 近 [myopia] and 老 [presbyopia])
I wanted to make this sound like one of those long medical terms. :)

gp32 wrote:Original term: 檻髪
Romanization: origami
Alternate TL: trichoplication

I came up with Latinistic translations of 檻髪:

Carcericoma (see my avatar)

  • substantive: imprisoning hair (what Akiha Tohno has)

    • carcer [carcerō]: imprison, incarcerate

    • i: connective vowel often used in Latin compounds

    • coma: hair on the head
Carcericomus, Carcericoma, Carcericomum

  • adjective: with hair that imprisons (Carcericoma, epithet for Akiha Tohno)

    • carcer [carcerō]: imprison, incarcerate

    • i: connective vowel often used in Latin compounds

    • com [coma]: hair on the head

    • us/a/um: Latin inflection suffixes
Carcericomus, carcericoma, and carcericomum were created on the analogy of auricomus (golden-haired), flavicomus (blonde-haired), and anguicomus (snake-haired).
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Unread postby ScriptKitty » October 5th, 2004, 2:53 am

I may sound overly purist here but... Why not just call it Imprisoning Hair? Afterall, that's what it does... And as long as the direct English equivalant doesn't sound awkward, why translate it into something that you need to provide another translation for?
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Unread postby sssssz » October 7th, 2004, 12:25 am

I... think Origami should stay Origami. Because.. well nobody in Europe, America, Africa, or Oceania had that power.. so I assume it's coined by Tohnos and those people. Then why translate? If my memory serves me right... I believe you used English terms for the Magan.. because Aoko taught Shiki what it's called and she's from the London Concave.. Rin's spells were in German because well, Zelretch taught her magic... if terms are in languages by language spoken by the sorcerers/wizards, Origami should stay Origami.
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Unread postby Will » October 7th, 2004, 2:09 am

I'd agree with SZ on leaving it in Japanese. Everyone knows origami is, and in dialog it would sound natural. Plus, I think it'd be possible to retain the pun.

Diaphanus - I do like your word, it's a mouthful though. Although, I would prefer to stick terms in the language it was written. And fix any Gerumen/Engrish/Ratin there may be.

Personally, I don't think the reader needs to understand every single word there is. Eventually they'll associate words to their meanings, if we were to use Origami for example, the reader would beging to associate that word with paper folding. They'd think, "What the heck?" However, as the story continued they would see the real meaning behind it. Then in time, they'd understand the pun.

Half the fun of a new story is connecting the dots. If they're already connected, where's the fun in that?
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Unread postby Ryuusoul » May 10th, 2005, 4:06 am

Maybe it's just me...I like Lock of Hair for Origami. It gets the whole "Imprisoning" feeling while still maintaining a pun. Lock...lock...get it?
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