Tsukihime vocabulary thread

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Unread postby Ryuusoul » May 26th, 2005, 3:27 pm

Not to let the cat out of the bag or get people's hopes up, but someone just may be proofing over what's been translated so far of the Melty Blood story script...

I'm actually killing time before we here at Revolve launch into our final foray of translation for Tsukihime (what remains of the Akiha arc, that is). So while I was waiting, I thought I'd be semi-productive and make sure our translations for Melty Blood match our Tsukihime format.

At any rate, cutting to the chase, there is a section that basically reads something like "Sion Eltnam Sokarisu. Hereby appointed blah blah blah...Sion Eltnam Atlasia"

My question is, has there been anything "official" in terms of the romanization for her old name? Sokalis, Socaris, Sokaliss, Socaliss, Southern Californias, etc.

Anyway, if you guys have any suggestions or info please feel free to post it here.

Edit: Google search reveals Sokaris to be the Greek name of the Egyptian god Sokar...a god of craftsmen associated with the dead, as he supposedly did things like manufacture royal bones and whatnot...maybe this could be it. Sokarisu is the Japanese way of spelling Sokaris...

Given the Japanese propensity to randomly insert references to any religion they like to make their things seem "deeper" and more "mysterious/intriguing/whatever", this seems likely...what are all your thoughts?
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Unread postby Fuyutski » May 30th, 2005, 12:08 pm

I'm late to reply for this, haven't been on the internet much as you've noticed. :P

But anyway, I remember quite sometime ago looking at a Fan Guide Magazine on the game that it had it both in English and in Japanese and it was "Sokaris". Which I'd pretty much say would be spot on.

Sokaris being the Greek name for the Mythological Egyptian God and the such. I mean, it logically fits, considering her story is linked to Egypt, but also Sion is quite a Greek/Mediterranean name in itself.
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Unread postby TakaJun » June 19th, 2005, 11:01 am

All right, since there's some inconsistancy in some small important terms, I'll post some terms here and possible translations for others (Ryuu,this means you) to decide which might be a good constant translation.

短剣 (short sword) I see knife and dagger being used

広場  Yard/field/etc...? (where SHIKI gets killed)

昼休み lunch break/lunch-time

離れの屋敷 I think we decided on detached building

胸の傷 wound/scar on chest - I think it should be scar since it's been there for a few years

保健室 nurse/clinic/infirmary

潔癖症 automysophobia (I don't see this word that much in Akiha route, but not once was this translation used in it)

鞄 BAG not SHOES

That's all I can remember for now. I'll post more as I remember/come across more terms. Give me inputs. Thanks
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Unread postby destinyerased » June 27th, 2005, 6:36 am

I dunno if the terms are final here and you wont take in more suggestions at this time. I also dont know if you take suggestions from people not in your teams.

But I have some opinions in some of the the terms translation. Please tell me so if there is to be no more discussion of the terms already.

Some of these translation here are more accruate and correct than the EvoSpace ones. But I think using German is a very strange choice for translation of tsukihime, as
1 This game does not deal with germans at all.
2 The characters in this game are japanese, french and british.
3 The German words, while accurate are way too scientific rather than mystic in style, sounds like something you would use in Sci-Fi, or Sci-Fantasy(Last Exile, Final Fantasy, xeno saga, Elfen Lied, and other Magic + Science setting) while the magicial lore in tsukihime is a more superstitious and mysterious setting.
4 We dont understand german, and german is long and hard to read, and sounds very artificial in this japanese made game
5 Japanese ACG writters like use their broken english, latin, greek, and french, but german is rarely used. (I think Elfen Lied used it, the context though, is to provide a pseudo-science style)
6 The fact you have long rationale means your have put into much effort for word to be accurate, however this same long rationale also means the reason is convoluted, complex and the reader will need additional nowledge of a new language, or addition things like the key of solomon which is not referenced in the original. It would be a distraction from engaging into the game.

In the magical and religious branch, a much better alternative is to use latin because such practice is very common in japanese ACG, latin words are easier to understand with english speakers, and give a distinct feeling of chanting magical/divine words.

In the Demon branch, it is a better idea to use the romanji for terms that are throughly explained in the game, perhapes give a literal translation the first time they are used. Because the demon branch is distinctively japanese.

I think in translation should be done as transparently as possible, to preserve the original meaning, mood, and style. Adding the translator's own interpretation and intruducing new knowledge( A new germany system for the koyuu kekkais) and reference into it would undermine the aspects of the original because afterall, we are not experts and we do not work with the author.

I would like to make these suggestions:

"Vampiric" is not a word...
Vampiric Creature is longer but it is a word and it describes the distinction between Vampire and other blood drinking creatures nicely and clearly

Original term: 魅了の魔眼
Romanization: miryou no magan
Translation: Enchanting Eyes(Sight)
(capitalized, a more straight and shorter of EvoSpace's, generally using "of" makes a term longer)
Latin: oculus venustas (Enchanting Eyes)

Original term: 空想具現化
Romanization: kuusou gugenka
EvoSpace TL: Marble Phantasm (Wierd term, but pretty much "official")
(1. This is soooooo widely accepted its already a specific term now)

Original term: 固有結界
Romanization: koyuu kekkai
Translation: Innate Domain (A domain is a bounded field where the properties and rules are dominated by its owner, I seem many instances of the word 結界 translated into "Domain".

Original term: 獣王の巣
Romanization: juou no su
Translation: Beast's Lair (Another accepted and perfectly fine translation)
Latin alternative: domus bestia

Original term: 創世の土
Romanization: sousei no tsuchi
Translation: Soil of Genesis (I totally agree genesis should be used)
Latin: solum de genesis

Original term: 埋葬機関
Romanization: maisou kikan
Translation: Burial Agency
(1 This is actually a sub-group of the inquisition you have suggested, it is focused on the Purge/Destroy aspect of the inquisition, and the fact this agency only have serveral independant members and all they do is destory the oddballs
2 This term is also defined and explained in the game and it is very specific.
3 Burial Agency sounds cool.)

Original term: 埋葬者
Romanization: maisousha
EvoSpace TL: Burier

Original term: 代行者
Romanization: daikousha
EvoSpace TL: Executor
( 1 This is same as agent but Agent sounds too modern
2 This term is also specific in context, the Executor is not just any Agent, it is a Agent from the church)

Original term: 黒鍵
Romanization: kokken
EvoSpace TL: Black Key
(1 Solomon is a new reference not in the original game
2 People will have to look up this word because it is not explained in the game
3 Black Key is widely accepted already)

Original term: 火葬式典
Romanization: kasou shikiten
EvoSpace TL: Cremation Ritual
(1 Actually The 火葬式典 is ciel's special skill, it is not a part of the Church's teaching and a type of magecraft, the Church has tolerated ciels usage of this because Ciel is actually a supernatural being herself. Ritual describes magecraft better
2 Rite is NOT the same as ritual, and rite does not fit here.)

Original term: 鬼
Romanization: oni
Translation: oni or Ogre
( 1. The Oni is actually closer in both appearance, behaviour, and habit with the western orge
2. The Oni is actually a specific type of japanese demons(Ma)
3. Keeping the romanji is a good idea too, because most ACG fans know what is an Oni, its the same idea we almost always directly use the term Ninja rather than translating them)

Original term: 混血
Romanization: konketsu
EvoSpace TL: Hybrid
( 1. D&D multiverse is decidedly western while the tsukihime Demon storyline is decidedly japanese
2. Teifling is never mentioned in japanese ACGs I know of
3. The term Hybrid is never used in context of offspring from diffrent nation/ethicity in tsukihime so there would be no confusion
4. The term Hybrid is explained in game for its spcific context
5. Many people dont play D&D)

Original term: 紅赤朱
Romanization: kurenai sekishu
Translation: kurenai sekishu
( 1. It would be a good idea to use the original romanji, while adding a bracket note when its mentioned for the first time, something like: (Literal: Crimson Red Vermillion)
2. This term is explained fully and very specific to the tsukihime universe so using romanji would enhance uch specificity.
3. This is a names like "Orochi" or "Kyobi" and "Sannin", in other mangas these terms are translated literally in the first appearance as a note and then introduced into the readers vocabulary
3. Kurenai Sekishu sounds cooler than Crimson Red Vermillion)

Original term: 檻髪
Romanization: origami
Translation: Imprisoning Hair or origami
( 1. Your translation is more compreshensive, but the thing its consist of 7(?) sylibis and 4 words as well as the "of" word, perhaps use both when its used first time to inform the reader?
2. Here is a good situation to keep the original japanese, with your translation as a note )

Original term: 退魔組織
Romanization: taima soshiki
Translation: Demon Hunter Clan
( 1. Clan = Family + Guild
2. Clan sounds very japanese
3. Clan IS the official way of refering to what people call feudal japanese families)

Original term: 直死の魔眼
Romanization: Chokushi no Magan
EvoSpace TL: Death Eyes(Sight)
Latin Alternative: oculus mortis

Original term: 魔眼殺し
Romanization: magan goroshi
Latin: fascinum-cruor
( 1. This is a specific NAME of an Artifact, so the EvoSpace's long literal translation would not seem to fit well
2. may be you cant find it in a normal dictionary but "fascinum" is the latin for "Evil Eye"
)

Original term: 反転衝動
Romanization: hanten shoudou
EvoSpace TL: Inversion Impulse
( 1. The term you have chosen discribe how would a doctor explain shiki and akiha's 反転衝動, however...
2. This term, used in this game, STRICTLY means the impulse of DEMONIC influence, and using a medical term for that would be awkaward as well as ignouring the demonic aspect.
3. Literally, inversion impulse is as accurate as it gets
4. Using a modern western medical term to describe an ancient oriental superstitious concept ruins the distinct style)

Original term: 魔術協会
Original term: 魔力
Original term: 魔力回路
( I like your translation for this three a lot, just wanna voice my support for these terms)

----------------
Other Trans:

Trans: Withering Garden
Latin Alternative: platea vietus
Withering Garden seems better than "Withered Garden" since it also describe the "manifested ideal effect" of this innate domain - to oppose "life".

----------
短剣
- I am pretty sure this means something a westerner would call a dagger

広場
- Yard. how does courtyard sound?

昼休み
- Lunch break, I am sure on this

胸の傷
- I would say wound, it is not a scar because it is never healed and although it happend a long time ago it still bleed often

保健室
- In a school, it is called a infirmary, I am pretty sure on this
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Unread postby TakaJun » June 29th, 2005, 1:38 pm

Okay, note that I have not read all of preivous posts, but I have not seen German used in any part of Tsukihime, or at least in all the parts I've worked on already. I know they used it in fate, and type-moon's german skills are...well...I'll say close to their English skills... I don't know about Latin...I'd prefer to translate whatever's in Japansese to english unless they are originally in Latin. (See what other's say, I don't think I have a big say in this....)

I agree and disagree with doing as much transparently as possible.
I agree since it's always good to keep the original context, but I disagree because some translations are already too widely know, it doesn't make a difference (correct me if I'm wrong)

The word "Vampiric", I don't think I saw it anywhere in the actual text.

I think I like the romaji use for Oni. Thinking of it, it's pretty widely known in english too.

About the wound on Shiki's chest, strictly speaking about the wound from 8years ago, they are actually healed. Shiki mentions this throughout the story. It does not bleed often. If it's bleeding, I think it's either some other wound or some metaphor in the text.

The other terms, I'll think about them when I get to them. (most are in the routes I haven't worked on)
I've only done the Akiha/Hisui route and working on Kohaku...so it'll be a while before I get to Arc/Ciel route.


BTW who has the final say in all the terms? Are we all going to endlessly talk about them or would we have like a discussion on them?(like the looong one we have on this board)
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Unread postby destinyerased » June 30th, 2005, 12:24 am

The latin is just an alternative, I actually like the good old english translation, I posted them just to voice that IF a third language HAS to be used to reflect the magical terminology, latin words would fit better than german. But actually if you put the terms into actual game, english is still the most fluent and normal choice imo.

- The chest wound on shiki's chest, I think in akiha tree it does hurt in serveral occasion, I forgot if it is in the game, but in the anime and manga it actually seep blood.

- Vampiric creature are used a lot in the Ciel/Arcuied tree, they refer to non-vampire blood sucking creatures

Anywayz, though I have worked on the game/manga/anime for quite a long time, but I am not a member working with the good ppl at revolve and just another guy waiting for their production to finish(almost ne), I dont have any say in the translation and totally depend on them what they will use.

... but I guess if the german is really used in the final version, you can always depack Nscript and find/replace it for your own reading comfort as long as you dont send it around.
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Unread postby Ryuusoul » June 30th, 2005, 2:45 am

My ghost is lingering and fading away slowly. But no...we're not using German or Latin...(least we weren't when I was working on it).

TakaJun: As far as terms went, I kind of went on my own and used whatever seemed appropriate at the time (and listed most of them in the terminology file).

As far as the wound/scar thing goes, I think I may have differentiated between wound (his scar opened up or chest is bleeding) and scar (he's not bleeding, the wound is all closed and "healed"). I think I used context to determine which was which.

Um, I think I did, anyway. If not, that seems like the most appropriate course of action.

Oh, and someone please replace all the "definately's"...Usually it's been spelled as "definitely", but there are a few places where I or others have misspelled it and the proofers haven't caught them.
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Unread postby TakaJun » January 8th, 2006, 1:39 am

This is not entirely Tsukihime, but I want to add a few terms for consensus.

宝具(Hougu): Noble Phantasm
令呪(Jyuin): Command Enchantment
聖杯 (Seihai): Holy Grail
聖杯戦争 (Seihai Sensou): Holy Grail War
魔術刻印(Majutsu Kokuin): Magic inscription
強化 (kyouka): Strengthening
呪刻 (kekkai): boundary field
英霊 (eirei): Heroic spirit
正義の味方 (Seigi no mikata): Superhero or hero (currently using superhero)
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Unread postby TakaJun » February 1st, 2006, 8:19 pm

Here are the Noble Phantasms and their "literal" translations. Some sound somewhat uncool so tell me if there's a better way to say some.

First, I want to say how they did it in Japanese. (I'll take excalibur, sword of promised victory, as an example here) In japanese, they have the weird Nasu name(Sword of promised victory) in the text with the furigana (small letters on top showing how to read the letters below it) saying the actual name (excalibur).

風王結界:Invisible Air; Boudary Field of the Wind King
約束された勝利の剣:Excalibur; Sword of Promised Victory
全て遠き理想郷: Avalon; All is a Distant Utopia
刺し穿つ死棘の槍:Gae Bolg; Piercing Lance of Death Thorns
突き穿つ死翔の槍:Gae Bolg; Thrusting Lance of Death Flight
無限の剣製: Unlimited Blade Works; Infinite Sword Creations
自己封印・暗黒神殿: Breaker, Gorgon; Self Seal - Dark Temple
騎英の手綱:Bellerophon; Reins of the Heroic Cavalry
他者封印・鮮血神殿:Bloodfort Andromeda; Others Seal - Blood Temple
破戒すべき全ての符: Rule breaker; All Mark that Destroys
燕返し: Tsubamegaeshi; Swallow Counter
十二の試練: God Hand; Twelve Labors
王の財宝: Gate of Babylon; King's Treasures
天地乖離す開闢の星:Enuma Elish;Star of Creation that Seperates Earth and Heaven (This one is long...)
妄想心音:Zabaniya; Heartbeat of Dillusion
熾天覆う七つの円環:Low Aias; 7 Circles that Cover the Kindled Heaven

oh, and tell me if this should be set up as a new topic...
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