*Spoiler* question on Akiha...

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Unread postby deathknight » June 27th, 2007, 8:50 pm

Yeah but I was wondering what Akiha's personal reaction would be if she were to become pregnant. Would she still goto school or marry her Niisan?
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Unread postby Nerroth » June 28th, 2007, 2:50 am

Well, if they did marry, at least they wouldn't need to change the family names...
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Unread postby chasmirror » June 28th, 2007, 4:47 am

deathknight wrote:Yeah but I was wondering what Akiha's personal reaction would be if she were to become pregnant. Would she still goto school or marry her Niisan?


Unfortunately for Akiha, the wedding is out of question.

In Japan, one needs a record of family register in order to get married. This isn't just a traditional process, but a part of a legal necessity.

However, Shiki only has a record in the Tohno family register, since Nanaya's are all wiped out. Also, in order to hide the fact that his real son inverted and killed a person, Makihisa mascaraded the record so that Shiki would take the place as the real Tohno son, which means there is no proof that Shiki is in fact the Shiki born of Nanaya family.

Simply put, legally there is no Nanaya Shiki, but only Tohno Shiki. Even if Akiha can somehow prove that Shiki is really not the real Tohno Shiki, and get his name off Tohno family register, she can't put Shiki back into Nanaya family register because it is erased long ago(if it existed in the first place, seeming as Nanaya family was an assassin family). So Shiki won't have any family register record, making him a legal abnormaly who can't get married or hold a job, at least not legally. This is one of the reasons why there was no Akiha Good Ending. It just couldn't be done so easily.

Technically, Akiha has enough power and connection to "create" a new family register for Shiki. However, this can only be done after revealing to her relatives and elders of the family that Makihisa had lied to them long time ago, which would hurt her position and influence in the family rather significanty, the position and the influence that she would duly need to change the situation in the first place. Too bad for her, really, although it would hardly deter her determination to stay with her brother.
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Unread postby marus » June 28th, 2007, 5:30 am

They could just spend a night in Vegas.
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Unread postby aldeayeah » June 28th, 2007, 11:18 am

Not like Akiha cares too much about the rest of the family. I mean, she kicked them out of the house.

About the Tohno's relatives, I think the fact that Makihisa lied to them would be the least of their worries... because they know who Shiki really is. And they probably remember the Saeki case some years ago (see Red Demon God).

AKIHA: I'm gonna marry Shiki, so get me a new record for him.
RELATIVES: OMGWTFTHATBLOODYDEMONKILLER!?!? ARE YOU CRAZY? He'll kill you! He'll kill us! Get him away!
AKIHA *tsundere mode*: Ahhh, urusai!

I think the lack of good end has more to do with the fact that there's a "two persons, one life" situation.
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Unread postby chasmirror » June 28th, 2007, 9:44 pm

aldeayeah wrote:Not like Akiha cares too much about the rest of the family. I mean, she kicked them out of the house.

About the Tohno's relatives, I think the fact that Makihisa lied to them would be the least of their worries... because they know who Shiki really is. And they probably remember the Saeki case some years ago (see Red Demon God).

AKIHA: I'm gonna marry Shiki, so get me a new record for him.
RELATIVES: OMGWTFTHATBLOODYDEMONKILLER!?!? ARE YOU CRAZY? He'll kill you! He'll kill us! Get him away!
AKIHA *tsundere mode*: Ahhh, urusai!

I think the lack of good end has more to do with the fact that there's a "two persons, one life" situation.


Actually, even Akiha can't directly go against the wishes of the entire clan so easily. Those who were kicked out were relatively immature members of the family, but the elders in the family could pose quite a threat to both Akiha and Shiki if they wanted to. In fact, the one killed Nanaya Kiri and massacred Nanaya Clan, Kishima, wasn't even the direct descendent of Tohno family, but a rather distant relative. There are other Tohno family members with such ability(although the cases like Kishima and Akiha are very rare).

Tohno family has other means at their hand to be rid of Akiha when and if(probably) she becomes totally inverted, since it is the tradition of the family to eliminate any inverted family member. In any case, Akiha won't be so eager to try something so dangerous against her family, despite her capability.

As for Shiki, aside from his eyes, he isn't really that great of a threat to other supernatural beings. His eyes can see death, sure, but he still needs to reach his opponents with a knife in his hand. His Nanaya personality is quite an assassin, but he is still a human being. Added with the fact that Shiki really can't function for a long time with his glasses off, getting rid of Shiki would be a lot easier than Akiha.
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Unread postby deathknight » June 29th, 2007, 9:59 pm

As for Shiki, aside from his eyes, he isn't really that great of a threat to other supernatural beings. His eyes can see death, sure, but he still needs to reach his opponents with a knife in his hand. His Nanaya personality is quite an assassin, but he is still a human being. Added with the fact that Shiki really can't function for a long time with his glasses off, getting rid of Shiki would be a lot easier than Akiha.


I disagree Chas and this is why:
The bonus Plus Period talk side story by Nasu where Shiki's eyes and killing skills have made him such a bad ass that Aozaki's mystic eyes killer glasses no longer work on him and he has to wear a blindfold instead. And this is the pussy whipped Tohno *I'm gonna faint* Shiki kicking that mage's ass without even his Nanaya persona present then and he still wiped out an entire forest with ease (looks like just a little time and experience works wonders for leveling up a demon killer). Plus if you played Melty Blood or React you may have noticed that Nanaya Shiki's Arc Drive and Super EX are one of if not the strongest finishing moves ever considering how it wipes the red bar clean. IMO Nanaya Shiki is the strongest fighter in Tsukihime and he could easily rape Ryogi and own Aoko without even messing up his hair...
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Unread postby marus » June 30th, 2007, 3:21 am

The Talk side story isn't considered canon, so it's unknown whether that's truly how Shiki will end up in the future. That version of Shiki might be able to evenly fight Aoko or Ryougi (I say might because we don't really know a lot about him), but our friendly neighborhood Shiki would get raped by the likes of them, unless he got a sneak attack or something. And you're giving Melty Blood too much credit, if the fighting system was truly based on the character's power then all of Arcueid's moves would be replaced with "Marble Phantasm insta-win drive X". I do agree though that the Tohno family would have problems dealing with Shiki, but for other reasons - mostly that no one in the family knows about his true powers and ancestry, while Shiki has access to a wealth of information about the rest of the family.
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Unread postby mir » June 30th, 2007, 7:20 pm

That's a good point, you can't really use MB as evidence to support a point because MB is made to have some sort of balance. And if the game mimicked real power, I somehow do not believe he even stands a chance vs Red Arcueid.

As for Shiki+Akiha...Vegas would not be classy enough for her. Paris or Monaco are probably better choices =)
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Unread postby chasmirror » July 2nd, 2007, 8:24 pm

deathknight wrote:I disagree Chas and this is why:
The bonus Plus Period talk side story by Nasu where Shiki's eyes and killing skills have made him such a bad ass that Aozaki's mystic eyes killer glasses no longer work on him and he has to wear a blindfold instead. And this is the pussy whipped Tohno *I'm gonna faint* Shiki kicking that mage's ass without even his Nanaya persona present then and he still wiped out an entire forest with ease (looks like just a little time and experience works wonders for leveling up a demon killer). Plus if you played Melty Blood or React you may have noticed that Nanaya Shiki's Arc Drive and Super EX are one of if not the strongest finishing moves ever considering how it wipes the red bar clean. IMO Nanaya Shiki is the strongest fighter in Tsukihime and he could easily rape Ryogi and own Aoko without even messing up his hair...


Interesting argument, but it isn't quite so.
Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that the Plus Period talk is a part of Tsukihime cannon.

I believe that the forest you mentioned is the Forest of Einnashe, which is a forest turned vampire. It is a mobile one at that, but once appeared, Shiki could find the "death" of it since it is so massive that it won't be able to avoid Shiki's attack. I am not saying Shiki is not powerful, just not quite invincible. The mage, as powerful as he was, was still a human. Against a supernatural being like the Dead Apostles, Shiki needs quite a bit of support to destroy them. Even in Melty Blood, Shiki could only kill Walachia AFTER Alcueid mimicked Crimson Moon, which took away Walachia's abstract form.

Also, according to Nasu's official interview, Ryogi Shiki's Mystic Eyes are actually superior to Tohno Shiki's. Unlike Tohno Shiki's eyes, which are only connected to the concept of "death," Ryohi's eyes are connected to the "Origin of All Things," which means she can destroy the universe if she tried. Ryogi's skills in martial arts are at worst evenly matched with Tohno's assassin skills, which are only an ability born out of his natural physical capability and remnants of training his father(Nanaya) gave him when he was really, really young. So in Shiki vs. Ryogi, Shiki can't win.

The strongest being in the Tsukihime Universe, including Fate/Stay Night storylines, is actually Alcueid. This much Nasu himself said so. At night with full moon, Shiki can't even see the "death" on her. Had they first met at night, Shiki would have been a meatbag before he could lay a finger on her.

Aoko is also a whole new level above Shiki. She is a natural-born destroyer, not to mention being one of the only four remaining Wizards which includes Zelretch. Zelretch destroyed the original Crimson Moon, the ultimate being of the moon(althought only with a surprise attack and being caught at his weakest moment). Her magic isn't quite explained yet, but even Alcueid herself is reluctant to deal with her, which says a lot about how strong she is. The Mystic Eye Killer that she gave Shiki isn't actually her invention, nor has anything to do with her magic. The glasses were a work of her sister, Toko Aozaki, Aoko's sister. So just because Shiki has outgrown them doesn't mean Shiki is stronger than Aoko.

Shiki's only advantage is that he can KILL with one shot. The problem is, Shiki himself has to land that shot on the opponent. Melty Blood, being a fight game, made a lot of adjustments to ensure the plausible gameplay. But the fact of the matter is, in an actual fight, even Akiha would kick Shiki's ass if she didn't care for him that much. Ciel might have some difficulties, but would eventually overcome him. Even Nero would have killed Shiki long ago if he didn't let Nanaya personality take over Shiki.

The point is, under the right circumstances, Shiki can kill almost any enemy. However, more powerful enemy requires even more difficult setups for Shiki to kill, the setups that Shiki alone can't prepare all the time. In Melty Blood, a good gamer can utilize Shiki character to defeat any character. In the actual Tsukihime World, Tohno Shiki isn't quite so able.
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Unread postby deathknight » July 4th, 2007, 1:11 pm

You made some good points Chas but I think you got somethings mixed up:
Ryogi Shiki's mystic eyes are not connected to the "Origin of all things" thats Nanaya Shiki's power. From what I read Ryogi's Shiki's mystic eyes are actually similar to True Shiki's mystic eyes in that she can only see death and not the existence it came from. Ryogi cannot see the death points she can only see lines and I think she can only see them on living creatures and not inanimate objects while Nanaya can see the death points of existence and lines and points on inanimate objects too. In fact in Tsukihime Nanaya/Tohno Shiki if he concentrated enough he can see the lines and death of the very air and ground. All it takes for Shiki to unlock his true potential against a target is understanding its concept and once he does that he can see its death easily.

But for canon we'll have to wait for Tsukihime 2 to check out just how strong Shiki truly is....
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Unread postby marus » July 4th, 2007, 4:43 pm

Ryougi's Mystic Eyes aren't like SHIKI's, in Rakkyo she was able to kill things like Fujino's psychic power and disease, so it's not just limited to animate objects. Also, we probably won't see Tsukihime 2 at least until Duke Nukem Forever comes out.
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Unread postby chasmirror » July 4th, 2007, 11:32 pm

deathknight wrote:You made some good points Chas but I think you got somethings mixed up:
Ryogi Shiki's mystic eyes are not connected to the "Origin of all things" thats Nanaya Shiki's power. From what I read Ryogi's Shiki's mystic eyes are actually similar to True Shiki's mystic eyes in that she can only see death and not the existence it came from. Ryogi cannot see the death points she can only see lines and I think she can only see them on living creatures and not inanimate objects while Nanaya can see the death points of existence and lines and points on inanimate objects too. In fact in Tsukihime Nanaya/Tohno Shiki if he concentrated enough he can see the lines and death of the very air and ground. All it takes for Shiki to unlock his true potential against a target is understanding its concept and once he does that he can see its death easily.

But for canon we'll have to wait for Tsukihime 2 to check out just how strong Shiki truly is....


Actually, you got the ones mixed up.

It's Tohno/Nanaya Shiki's eyes that can only see death. Shiki's eyes are limited to death because they are a result of combination of Nanaya bloodline's inherited eyes(which in case of Nanaya Kiri, Shiki's real father, could see the immediate thought or emotion of the object) and his experience of death. In other words, Shiki's already special eyes(although not yet at the level of mystic eyes) was upgraded into what it is now after Shiki experienced the death and the eyes "learned" of the concept of death.

Ryogi is different. She was born with a connection to the "Origin of All Things," and after her coma, her inborn ability was fully activated and she could "use" her eyes. Ryogi's eyes are her natural ability, and she can control her eyes much easier. Therefore, Ryogi can see more things than what is visible by controlling her ability. Ryogi's Mystic Eyes are the original, something that can become more powerful if she used her full ability.

Tohno/Nanaya Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception has to process the information through his brain to work. The Nanaya's eyes are a tool to see something "that should not be seen," and the brush with death enabled it to see death, but it is much more inefficient than Ryogi's natural eyes. Also, Shiki can't control his eyes in ways other than that like Mystic Eyes Killer. In the supposedly sequel Tsukihime2, his eyes have gotten stronger so that Mystic Eye Killer is no longer effective, but his ability to see death has not gotten stronger. His eyes became such that he could still see the lines and dots even if he closed his eyes, but the kind of death he can see has not changed at all. He can still only see the lines on things that exist, and it takes much more effort to see the dot on living things, and even more for the dot on inanimate object. Basically, the sensor has gotten more powerful, but the processor was not upgraded so it cannot process any more information.

Ryogi is like a PS3 that can play any playstation 1, 2, or 3 games without much problem. Shiki is like a PC that needs an emulator that takes up most of the system resources to even play a playstatioin game. That's why I said Ryogi's eyes are superiror to Shiki's.
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Unread postby deathknight » July 7th, 2007, 1:51 pm

Interesting Chas but...

Like I said Ryogi cannot see death points she can only see lines so I doubt she would be able to kill Roa or something like a soul or wipe out a continent like Nero so easily like Nanaya did. Plus Tohno Shiki's Harem OWNS Ryogi's pitiful crew of Mikuto so really he has Arcuied, Ciel, Akiha, the maids and a bunch of other girls who seem to fall for his "I'm lonely and need love" female attraction powers like white on rice :twisted:

You never know but my money's on Shiki turning Ryogi (and hopefully Aoko) into his latest harem additions when he goes all tsundere on her ass. Both those girls may be crazy killer badasses but Shiki outperforms them in bed no contest. Lets see them fight against his ecchi scenes! :wink:

Anyway I'm sure you heard theres a Kara no Kyokai movie coming out this year or next so lets let the movie finish the debate since I'm sure me and many fans consider that unimpeachable canon.

Ciao
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Unread postby potaatti » July 7th, 2007, 3:19 pm

marus wrote:
The Talk side story isn't considered canon, so it's unknown whether that's truly how Shiki will end up in the future. That version of Shiki might be able to evenly fight Aoko or Ryougi (I say might because we don't really know a lot about him), but our friendly neighborhood Shiki would get raped by the likes of them, unless he got a sneak attack or something. And you're giving Melty Blood too much credit, if the fighting system was truly based on the character's power then all of Arcueid's moves would be replaced with "Marble Phantasm insta-win drive X". I do agree though that the Tohno family would have problems dealing with Shiki, but for other reasons - mostly that no one in the family knows about his true powers and ancestry, while Shiki has access to a wealth of information about the rest of the family.


Though I think that they should be able to take him out easily with conventional means, ie. putting a bomb on the route where he goes to school or sniping him or something like that.. :P
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Unread postby marus » July 7th, 2007, 6:16 pm

deathknight wrote:
You never know but my money's on Shiki turning Ryogi (and hopefully Aoko) into his latest harem additions when he goes all tsundere on her ass.


Ryougi's already got it in for Mikiya and Shiki is too old for Aoko now.

potaatti wrote:Though I think that they should be able to take him out easily with conventional means, ie. putting a bomb on the route where he goes to school or sniping him or something like that.. Razz


mmm, Maybe, but he still has his uber danger awareness, so sneak attacks aren't always as effective on him. Besides, have you ever heard of a demon sniper?
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Unread postby potaatti » July 7th, 2007, 7:33 pm

marus wrote:Ryougi's already got it in for Mikiya and Shiki is too old for Aoko now.


Shiki is too old for Aoko? Isn't Aoko something like 10 years older than Shiki? :shock:

potaatti wrote:mmm, Maybe, but he still has his uber danger awareness, so sneak attacks aren't always as effective on him. Besides, have you ever heard of a demon sniper?


Maybe, but they could hire a bunch of normal assassins or do it the Iraqi way and put a massive IED at his school route, so that when he realizes the danger it's too late to escape from the explosion area. :D
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Unread postby Eriol-kun » July 7th, 2007, 8:23 pm

marus wrote:Shiki is too old for Aoko now.


Lol, does this mean that Aoko really has a briefcase full of shota? T___T.
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Unread postby chasmirror » July 9th, 2007, 9:48 pm

deathknight wrote:Interesting Chas but...

Like I said Ryogi cannot see death points she can only see lines so I doubt she would be able to kill Roa or something like a soul or wipe out a continent like Nero so easily like Nanaya did. Plus Tohno Shiki's Harem OWNS Ryogi's pitiful crew of Mikuto so really he has Arcuied, Ciel, Akiha, the maids and a bunch of other girls who seem to fall for his "I'm lonely and need love" female attraction powers like white on rice :twisted:

You never know but my money's on Shiki turning Ryogi (and hopefully Aoko) into his latest harem additions when he goes all tsundere on her ass. Both those girls may be crazy killer badasses but Shiki outperforms them in bed no contest. Lets see them fight against his ecchi scenes! :wink:

Anyway I'm sure you heard theres a Kara no Kyokai movie coming out this year or next so lets let the movie finish the debate since I'm sure me and many fans consider that unimpeachable canon.

Ciao


Actually, Ryogi CAN see the points, just chooses not to, because she doesn't have to. Unlike Shiki, she doesn't have any urge to kill. She merely defeats anyone who gets in the way because they are a bother, not necessarily an enemy. Like I've said, Ryogi's eyes are superior to Shiki's. This is what Nasu, the creator of Tsukihime world, said so.

True, ones around Shiki are more powerful than Ryogi's, but they are not exactly Shiki's tools. Arc, Ciel, and Akiha wouldn't do things just because they were told by Shiki, nor is Shiki a kind of person who would do such things. Also, Ryogi is a type who would fight by herself. So if Shiki and Ryogi ever fought, for whatever reason, they would do it one-on-one.

As far as in bed goes... you might be right. :D He would have to get Ryogi in bed first, though. I read the book, though, and from what I've read about Ryogi, it won't be easy to seduce her, even for Shiki.

About the movie... I was in impression that it will be the remake of the original novel in anime. I doubt anything new would be revealed there.
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Unread postby miszou » July 9th, 2007, 11:29 pm

I completely agree with chasmirror on everything :D

Ryogi would only be satisfied to fight with the nanaya side anyway, other wise she would just leave it. She wouldn't care for Shiki much.

Ryogi does indeed see points, she uses them alot more efficient then Shiki will ever do probably (like killing her own arm in the middle of a battle using the point). I think Ryogi and nanaya would be a nice battle :]
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