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Unread postby chasmirror » May 26th, 2008, 8:24 am

SeruraRenge wrote:if that's the case, why didn't they just wipe out the non-magic users centuries ago before modern warfare could make that difficult? If only magi were left, they wouldn't have to worry about how openly they used and studied magic.

It doesn't seem too unreasonable when you think about it. Faustus sold his own soul for knowledge. Why wouldn't the Magus Association sacrifice the "normal" people of the world in order to turn it into a mage-focused planet? Surely their goals would be accomplished faster this way. From a purely logical standpoint, it would only make sense to do whatever it takes to have your goal be accomplished more quickly.


Not really. First of all, there always has been more non-magic users than the magic users. Not to mention the magic users hadn't always been the most powerful beings on the planet. Had Merlin tried to do what you had suggested, King Arthur would have blasted him with Excalibur.

Also, the magic users in the past could not have known how the magic would deteriote by the introduction of technology. I mean, the power of magic has diminished, but the knowledge about it has actually increased. Probably by the time they figured out why the magic has become weaker, it probably was too late to resolve the situation so violently. Beside, hindsight is always perfect.

On top of that, mythicism cannot really be conceived without its secrecy. If everyone who doesn't know magic is eliminated, then only those who know magic will remain, making magic no longer a well-hidden secret. Thus gone is its mythicism, and so is its power.

Simply, nothing in life is so simple to solve.
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Unread postby SeruraRenge » May 26th, 2008, 10:10 am

chasmirror wrote:Not really. First of all, there always has been more non-magic users than the magic users. Not to mention the magic users hadn't always been the most powerful beings on the planet. Had Merlin tried to do what you had suggested, King Arthur would have blasted him with Excalibur.


correct me if I'm wrong, but had Saber been shown to be able to beamspam back when she was alive, or was it something she gained by Excalibur becoming a Noble Phantasm?

On top of that, mythicism cannot really be conceived without its secrecy. If everyone who doesn't know magic is eliminated, then only those who know magic will remain, making magic no longer a well-hidden secret. Thus gone is its mythicism, and so is its power.

Simply, nothing in life is so simple to solve.


simple, no, but nothing comes without risk. Since they never actually tried to have a world of magic, they don't KNOW what would happen if they did it. It's speculation at best. For all we know, it could create a violent backlash of magic from it becoming too widespread.

Besides, the mysticism will still exist, even if everyone did know about it. It's not like magic is a 100% understood concept within their world. There is always something (like how True Magic works, for example) that cannot be fully explained. After all, the word mysticism itself means "A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience." In other words, the belief in something that is beyond a human's ability to fully comprehend.
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Unread postby JimmyT64 » May 26th, 2008, 10:24 am

SeruraRenge wrote:correct me if I'm wrong, but had Saber been shown to be able to beamspam back when she was alive, or was it something she gained by Excalibur becoming a Noble Phantasm?


Probably not, but she still had her magic resistance, and excalibur is still a good sword.

Plus, Avalon>All
Tsukihime drinking game. 1. Every time a word or a phrase is repeated 3 or more times, take a drink (eg. This chair).
2. Every time Shiki claims not to understand something already explained, take a drink
3. Every time Shiki doesn't realize someone is hitting on him, take a drink.
4. Every time someone who should be dead, isn't, take a drink.
5. Every time Shiki does something ridiculous with points\lines.
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 26th, 2008, 6:34 pm

SeruraRenge wrote:correct me if I'm wrong, but had Saber been shown to be able to beamspam back when she was alive, or was it something she gained by Excalibur becoming a Noble Phantasm?

It is not clear. First of all, the Fate SN is not exactly the world we know. Many legends and myths tell us some about Saber's past, but that doesn't mean everything is accounted for.

Either way, what I was trying to convey was that no matter how powerful a mage is, there always are more regular humans, and some who are more powerful than him or her by other means. Also, like so many legends go, there always will be a hero who would spoil any mage's attempt to rid of non-magic users. It is like how the Dead Apostles, individually so much powerful, try not to collide directly with the Church because the organization is so massive. It just is not a wise move to against the number.

SeruraRenge wrote:simple, no, but nothing comes without risk. Since they never actually tried to have a world of magic, they don't KNOW what would happen if they did it. It's speculation at best. For all we know, it could create a violent backlash of magic from it becoming too widespread.

Besides, the mysticism will still exist, even if everyone did know about it. It's not like magic is a 100% understood concept within their world. There is always something (like how True Magic works, for example) that cannot be fully explained. After all, the word mysticism itself means "A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience." In other words, the belief in something that is beyond a human's ability to fully comprehend.

Yes, but this is a fantasy world, not an English class...... The world of Fate goes according to Nasu's setting, not an English dictionary.

Beside, I said "mythicism", not "mysticism".

Mythicism is a way to interpret things in terms of myths, instead of looking at an event through scientific and technological terms.

Mysticism is what you have said.

......thinking back, this probably wasn't the best word that I had chosen. Perhaps "mystique", or "mystic" is a closer word to what I originally intended. I am basically referring to how the truth regarding it is hidden from the rest of the world.

To your argument, not quite so. Not every physicist knows about everything about the universe, but none would feel so mystical about a phenomenon, because he or she would have all the basic knowledge to understand parts of it. Same with the magic. If everyone knows magic, it wouldn't necessarily mean the death of magic, but would significantly weaken it, if not kill it. It no longer would be something unknown people would fear. It'd be something fearsome but known. It is like the difference between being afraid of a ghost and being afraid of a hitman. It just wouldn't have the same power.
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Unread postby Einherjar » May 26th, 2008, 8:28 pm

chasmirror wrote:
SeruraRenge wrote:correct me if I'm wrong, but had Saber been shown to be able to beamspam back when she was alive, or was it something she gained by Excalibur becoming a Noble Phantasm?

It is not clear. First of all, the Fate SN is not exactly the world we know. Many legends and myths tell us some about Saber's past, but that doesn't mean everything is accounted for.


Well, if she really could, it would definitely be famous for it, chasmirror. Besides, Servents are not exactly the same as original (even though saber isn't really a servent, but still), and Kojirou didn't even exist. Probably, Arthuria didn't even have mana then, let alone running mach 2-3. Myths are different, that's very true, but I would think the heroes would be that powerful. By the way, you always say it's fiction when there's something, but you did write a whole page long argument about How Kohaku can drive -_-
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 27th, 2008, 3:43 am

Einherjar wrote:Well, if she really could, it would definitely be famous for it, chasmirror. Besides, Servents are not exactly the same as original (even though saber isn't really a servent, but still), and Kojirou didn't even exist. Probably, Arthuria didn't even have mana then, let alone running mach 2-3. Myths are different, that's very true, but I would think the heroes would be that powerful. By the way, you always say it's fiction when there's something, but you did write a whole page long argument about How Kohaku can drive -_-


Actually, I wrote ONE line about her driving, which I had corrected myself later. You just thought the whole argument was wrong because it didn't agree with you. ;P
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