Newbie questions, please humor me

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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Yoten » May 2nd, 2013, 10:04 pm

Message wrote:Actually, the worlds of Tsukihime and F/sn cannot exist together in their natural states. Only through the use of extra-universal bridges (i.e. Ahnenerbe, Carnival Moment, etc...) can people from the different TYPE-MOON sub-universes meet each other. But this is an different topic altogether, and the discussion becomes so meta that it cannot make any sense even if you'd believe in the TYPE-MOON universe.. So let's stop it here. >_>


Hmm, I'd say that it's pretty clear that they live in the same world. The settings are too consistent. Magical systems, organizations like the Mage's Association and the Church, almost everything is shared. And while the main characters from each series may not meet each other, I've never seen anything that said they literally cannot -- there just haven't been any circumstances placing them together. Furthermore, secondary characters like
The Aozaki sisters and Riesbyfe Stridberg
DO cross over into multiple series.

Places like Ahnenerbe are used as an excuse to bring the whole cast together for no real reason -- they're basically non-canon stages used for gag material.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Yoten » May 2nd, 2013, 10:06 pm

Zogundar wrote:I uh, noticed a rather.. annoying... problem..
so.. it seems you can't uh... save the game.. when a choice comes up. You know, one of the times it's most important to save the game.
(I don't suppose there's an onscripter workaround thingy that let's you forcibly bring up the menu)


Message wrote:Indeed it's not possible to save at choice points. Use the 'skip scenes previously read' option to quickly return to a certain choice point in the game. Simply write down the choices you make.

Uh, is it just me or is it indeed VERY possible to save at choice points? Even if I'm at a choice, I can still right-click and choose to create a save file at that point. I did it a billion times playing through Tsukihime, Kagetsu Tohya, etc...
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 2nd, 2013, 10:10 pm

Argh now I don't know what to believe

Saving:
Could it be because I updated onscripter, and the newer version doesn't allow it or something?

Out of curiosity, do you remember if the music stops for you when you get a decision? Mine stops (Probably not related, but you never know.)
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Yoten » May 2nd, 2013, 10:27 pm

Zogundar wrote:Saving:
Could it be because I updated onscripter, and the newer version doesn't allow it or something?

Out of curiosity, do you remember if the music stops for you when you get a decision? Mine stops (Probably not related, but you never know.)


I just tried updating my onscripter (boy, the new version's volume sure is louder!) and that's definitely the cause -- with the new version I couldn't save during choices anymore. Maybe someone should submit a bug to the developer. :P

Music stops during a lot of decisions, but not all of them. So yes, it's intentional.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 2nd, 2013, 10:33 pm

Doesn't look like they've updated since 2011 though.

Sounds like it's time to revert back to the original! (Good thing I kept all of the old files.)

Thanks for checking! It's good to know I can at least eliminate one headache.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 9th, 2013, 10:09 pm

Was starting to wonder how long until Arcueid shows up, since she's last out of the five apparently.

And then oh, there she is!

Shortly followed by Image and Image and Image
(Left off at the Day 3 start screen)

Also a translation question, I noticed Shiki referred to her as a "white girl," is he specifically referring to her ethnicity, or is it just her appearance/some other Japanese thing? It seems like I've seen Japanese girls described as having "white" or "snow-like" skin before too, so I can't rule that out. Plus I think in F/sn everyone just referred to Saber as a foreigner rather than commenting that she was "white," so there's that too.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 14th, 2013, 5:15 pm

Oh my God, how do you pronounce the name of that guy who has nothing but consonants? :shock:
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Yoten » May 14th, 2013, 10:24 pm

Zogundar wrote:Oh my God, how do you pronounce the name of that guy who has nothing but consonants? :shock:


Nero.

TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:"Nrvnqsr", phonetically spelled "Nero", was given to him as a play on words in Gematria by which the letters that compose it add up to 666, the so-called ''Number of the Beast''.


Wikipedia wrote:Many researchers connect the "Number of the Beast", referred to in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament, with either Greek or Hebrew gematria as used by the early Christians. According to such interpretations, the number in question, 666, was originally derived via gematria from the name of the Roman emperor of the time, Nero Caesar (נרונקסר Nero Qasr).
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 14th, 2013, 11:20 pm

Image

I don't remember any major problems with the translations Mirror Moon did for F/sn (I think translating "seigi no mikata" as "Superhero" is the closest that comes to mind for me personally, but that can be a tricky one so it's not worth complaining over on its own.) But this is silly! If they ever translate a future re-release, or update this, I hope they just use "Nero" instead of.. whatever they were going for there. Unless there's a REASON to translate his name like that? Is the Japanese version something non-sensical that you have to ask how to pronounce too? (Even though Japanese doesn't really work that way..)
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Yoten » May 15th, 2013, 12:25 am

Zogundar wrote:Unless there's a REASON to translate his name like that? Is the Japanese version something non-sensical that you have to ask how to pronounce too? (Even though Japanese doesn't really work that way..)


The Japanese name is... Nvrnqsr Chaos, pronounced "Nero" Chaos.

Instead of assuming it's a translation error, maybe you should read the link I gave you and learn more about the number of the beast and how it relates to Nero Caesar and Greek/Hebrew history. If you've played F/SN you'd know that Type-Moon uses lots of historical and mythical material in their games.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 15th, 2013, 1:01 am

Yoten wrote:The Japanese name is... Nvrnqsr Chaos, pronounced "Nero" Chaos.

Instead of assuming it's a translation error, maybe you should read the link I gave you and learn more about the number of the beast and how it relates to Nero Caesar and Greek/Hebrew history. If you've played F/SN you'd know that Type-Moon uses lots of historical and mythical material in their games.

Is it seriously spelled literally ”Nvrnqsr,” in roman script, in the Japanese version, without any furigana to tell the reader how to actually pronounce it??

Also wouldn't the pronunciation of "Nvrnqsr," if it means Nero Ceasar, be pronounced "Nero Ceasar" instead of just "Nero"?
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Yoten » May 15th, 2013, 5:07 am

Zogundar wrote:Is it seriously spelled literally ”Nvrnqsr,” in roman script, in the Japanese version, without any furigana to tell the reader how to actually pronounce it??

Also wouldn't the pronunciation of "Nvrnqsr," if it means Nero Ceasar, be pronounced "Nero Ceasar" instead of just "Nero"?


Yes, it seriously is:

http://76.72.168.19/images/2007-09-08-70425.jpeg

http://cache.fighters.com.br/jogos/gale ... _Chaos.png

In katakana it's written as "Nero" to clue in the Japanese on how to say his name.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 15th, 2013, 5:53 am

Ack possible spoiler in the first pic :( (Unknown character = spoiler; my spoiler tolerance is set one notch above "None.")

Yoten wrote:In katakana it's written as "Nero" to clue in the Japanese on how to say his name.

Well now see there's the catch. It's not written as Nr-WHATEVER in the game. That's just [extra] fancy romanization used in supplemental materials.

If they use the "ネロ" katakana in the game, and assuming that's what the voice actors say in the anime, then that's what the translation should use. Because your average English speaker is in the same boat as a Japanese person if you don't write it as "Nero." It just looks like "Oooh fancy foreign characters" that don't mean anything to your average reader on either side of the Pacific. Except when the Japanese "read" the name at least they have their trusty katakana to fall back on.

It's like the character Juha Bach from Bleach. The early translator groups basically settled on his name as.. well, Juha Bach. This was a fair approximation based on the Japanese spelling of "ユーハバッハ," or "Yuuhabahha." But for some unfathomable reason, the "official" romanization of his name given by the author is.. "Yhwach." But if you use that name for an English audience, they will have no idea how to actually pronounce the name! If you can squeeze the correct four syllables into that I will be impressed. Especially if you do so without being told the proper pronunciation first.

I mean, obviously you use the English or proper foreign spellings for some things. Otherwise you'd end up with weird spellings for names. For example, "Jason." In Japanese that would be ”ジェイソン,” but you wouldn't translate it as "Jeison," because that would confuse the people you're trying to translate for. But "Nvrnqsr" is not a "real" name. Or at the very least, it is hardly equivalent to just "Nero." It it were truly equivalent, the Katakana would at least be something like "ネロシーザー" for a closer approximation.

Well, that's my take on it anyway. I suspect this debate has been done to death in the past 13 years since the game's release..
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 26th, 2013, 11:10 pm

Since it's not like there's a lot lot else going on around here >_> I'm going to ask a question I would probably otherwise just not bother with.

Second guessing the walkthrough!

So when I first started I tried not to use the walkthrough, but eventually I started checking it to see if I was picking the "right" answers. Pretty soon I was relying on it. So far I've used the walkthrough's advice as basis for my "final" decisions for all except one choice early on
(I think it was the first decision for where to go eat, I decided to be social and eat in the cafeteria, the walkthrough I think said to just stay in class.)
Other than that, I sometimes pick other choices if I think they're a dead end or will be particularly amusing, and then go back and reload and pick the "proper" choice.

So I got to Day 8 I think it was, and..

The decision at the end of the day where you either listen to Akiha and stay in bed, or struggle from your bed to go see Arcueid. My first guess was go see Arcueid since I'm doing her route, but the walkthrough said to do Akiha's pick. So thinking maybe getting out of bed in that state would lead to a dead end I went ahead and tried it just to see.. and to my surprise, I found it eventually led to a completely different Day 9 (Differently titled at least, I didn't go beyond the title for either yet.)

Now, without spoiling anything, does anyone know if the choice to go see Arcueid and get that extra plot exposition as opposed to going to sleep is really the wrong decision for doing her route? I ask because I've noticed a pattern with other decisions in the walkthrough. Typically a "wrong" choice lets you continue without resulting in a dead end, but had you gone with the "correct" choice you would have gotten a longer scene with more exposition. Since that at least seems to be the opposite in this case on the surface, it makes me wonder. Plus it just "feels" like the right thing to do if you're trying to win Arcueid over (Yeah she scolds you, but she still seems touched that Shiki was that committed to keeping his promise.)

If there's some complicated, spoilery reason that I should just trust the walkthrough (Or not), just keep it simple. "Yes the walkthrough is right, stay in bed" or "Eh it doesn't really matter" are good answers, "Well you see if you pick the second one.." is probably going to be saying too much. :P
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Message » May 27th, 2013, 8:02 am

As you can see in the flowchart, choosing Go see Arcueid leads directly into a dead end (s161, s107, s107a). Choosing to Obey Akiha allows you to continue along the storyline.

I don't remember about the circumstances. Your explanation is as good as mine. You'll have to read the dead end to find out why it's going to be a fatal choice.

The choice after this one will probably be more obvious to you, if that is any comfort.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 27th, 2013, 6:44 pm

Message wrote:As you can see in the flowchart, choosing Go see Arcueid leads directly into a dead end (s161, s107, s107a). Choosing to Obey Akiha allows you to continue along the storyline.

I don't remember about the circumstances. Your explanation is as good as mine. You'll have to read the dead end to find out why it's going to be a fatal choice.

The choice after this one will probably be more obvious to you, if that is any comfort.
Wait, that really was a dead end? But you (Well technically it was Yoten-) said before that dead ends in Tsukihime were immediate and obvious, unlike in F/sn (And up until now they have been.) That was a decently long conversation with a lot of exposition, and a new day even started. But if you say it leads to a dead end, I guess I can go back and see (So long as it doesn't take an entire day's worth of events to read.)

Oh and while I'm at it,

That next choice, (Go with Arcueid or Go to School) I think I stopped just after making the 'correct' choice, does the alternative lead to another dead end? I am trying to 'collect' those, even if you don't get anything for it like in F/sn. Partly because I hypothesize a minor plot thread that was never explained to me in F/sn came up in a dead end.

I won't ask for every choice, I swear. :P
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Message » May 27th, 2013, 7:18 pm

Zogundar wrote:
That next choice, (Go with Arcueid or Go to School) I think I stopped just after making the 'correct' choice, does the alternative lead to another dead end? I am trying to 'collect' those, even if you don't get anything for it like in F/sn. Partly because I hypothesize a minor plot thread that was never explained to me in F/sn came up in a dead end.

I won't ask for every choice, I swear. :P

Again, as you can see in the flowchart, it leads to s167 and s107a (interestingly, both wrong choices get you the same bad end here).
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 27th, 2013, 9:23 pm

I've avoided looking at the flowchart because Spoilers. :P

Huh, they both go to the same dead end? Weird. Still, there must be at least one more different scene if you go with the first one, because I don't see how

Arcueid can show up in Shiki's room the next day and complain about him breaking his promise if he doesn't break his promise.

Hmm, I guess tonight I'll just see for myself how they differ (I turned on the scene skip, that seems to work okay.) Although in F/sn I think there were some scenes that the game would offer you to skip, but if you read them anyway you might discover they were actually subtly different from the last time you saw the scene. Do you know if Tsukihime does that anywhere? I assume this will mainly be an issue for subsequent playthroughs while doing the other heroines' routes.

Another random question I didn't want to bother asking on its own: In the Japanese version, how is Ciel's name spelled? "シエル"? I'm pretty sure based on my experience with MMZ that Ciel is a French name, and that's how her name was spelled in Japanese. But there's nothing uniquely foreign about the Japanese spelling of the name to my knowledge, as well as there being "Shieru" names in Japanese (That use Kanji.)

I'd also like to ask how to pronounce Hisui's name, (Hear me out) but if a Japanese expert can't explain the proper way to pronounce "ひ," then unless there are audio clips (And I did Google it) of the name being pronounced I think I'm outta luck! (Because despite what many people and websites or even experts will tell you, "ひ" is apparently not actually pronounced the same as the English "he" because the consonant is in fact different from the other Japanese "h's," kind of like ふ except even harder I guess.)
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Yoten » May 28th, 2013, 3:36 pm

Zogundar wrote:Wait, that really was a dead end? But you (Well technically it was Yoten-) said before that dead ends in Tsukihime were immediate and obvious, unlike in F/sn (And up until now they have been.) That was a decently long conversation with a lot of exposition, and a new day even started. But if you say it leads to a dead end, I guess I can go back and see (So long as it doesn't take an entire day's worth of events to read.)

It's a dead end, but that particular one just has a lot of events/exposition leading up to it. When I said immediate, I meant that the dead end is the next thing to happen -- there are no further decisions to make so the game isn't "fooling" you into thinking you survived like some of the ones in F/SN did.

Another random question I didn't want to bother asking on its own: In the Japanese version, how is Ciel's name spelled? "シエル"?

Yes.

I'd also like to ask how to pronounce Hisui's name, (Hear me out) but if a Japanese expert can't explain the proper way to pronounce "ひ," then unless there are audio clips (And I did Google it) of the name being pronounced I think I'm outta luck! (Because despite what many people and websites or even experts will tell you, "ひ" is apparently not actually pronounced the same as the English "he" because the consonant is in fact different from the other Japanese "h's," kind of like ふ except even harder I guess.)

Uhh, what? I'm not sure where you're getting your Japanese info from, but you should stop going there.

"hee-soo-ee" is correct, although I've noticed that the "hee" part isn't pronounced very strongly so it tends to sound like "h-soo-ee". You can hear it in the Melty Blood games, and probably in the anime too.
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Re: Newbie questions, please humor me

Unread postby Zogundar » May 28th, 2013, 11:27 pm

Yoten wrote:It's a dead end, but that particular one just has a lot of events/exposition leading up to it. When I said immediate, I meant that the dead end is the next thing to happen -- there are no further decisions to make so the game isn't "fooling" you into thinking you survived like some of the ones in F/SN did.
Oh. I still think it's fooling you into thinking you survived if you make it to a new day! :P

As long as the subject came up anyway, I think-
-the lesson that came up said it was fifth period, and if I've been following these correctly that means it was the 5th dead end? I only remember getting three dead ends before, does that mean I missed the fourth one? If I did, what choice leads to that? (Unless it's inexplicably a choice that hasn't come up yet or does not appear in this route.) I won't ask for them all, just this one mulligan. :P

Uhh, what? I'm not sure where you're getting your Japanese info from, but you should stop going there.
I trust my source. It's one of the more obscure pitfalls to learning [to speak] Japanese, but if you dig around you can see for yourself that it exists.

Example:
http://japanese.stackexchange.com/quest ... some-cases

"hee-soo-ee" is correct, although I've noticed that the "hee" part isn't pronounced very strongly so it tends to sound like "h-soo-ee".
It's definitely not a clear cut transfer of using an English pronunciation as an equivalent. It looks similar to the difference between pronouncing 左(Hidari/left) and 額(Hitai/forehead) or 低い(Hikui/short[in height.])
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