creating a way to distribute this?

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creating a way to distribute this?

Unread postby thecrimina1 » March 27th, 2007, 4:16 am

hmmm, well i've watched the anime and played the MB games, and so now i'm trying to find the O.G. game, but as everyone on the forum says, it's out of normal distribution. however, it's a basic disc, i'm guessing, so i wanted to ask if maybe someone could FTP the image or something or put it on torrent for a bit of time so people could get it and keep it alive. i'm willing to torrent this if people want it because i dont' want to shell out ridiculous amounts for it.
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Re: creating a way to distribute this?

Unread postby Hyperbeast » March 27th, 2007, 5:42 am

thecrimina1 wrote:hmmm, well i've watched the anime and played the MB games, and so now i'm trying to find the O.G. game, but as everyone on the forum says, it's out of normal distribution. however, it's a basic disc, i'm guessing, so i wanted to ask if maybe someone could FTP the image or something or put it on torrent for a bit of time so people could get it and keep it alive. i'm willing to torrent this if people want it because i dont' want to shell out ridiculous amounts for it.


That would be illegal, and mirror-moon are against piracy. It's in the rules not to talk about these sorts of things here.
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Unread postby miszou » March 27th, 2007, 7:01 am

You can still buy the game pretty easy, just will cost ya ;P
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Unread postby Alyeris » March 27th, 2007, 9:31 am

Whats the O.G.?
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Unread postby thecrimina1 » March 27th, 2007, 4:10 pm

mmmm, sorry, just thought it might be different since it was out of normal print, but yeah, i get it. O.G. is like original 'G' kind of thing. Slang, so it has different variations. meh, guess i'll wait to see if type-moon re-releases the game.
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Unread postby haseottod » March 27th, 2007, 6:41 pm

so thats why i cant download it...... : (
dont tell me that FSN is gonna be the same that would suck......
Btw are you sure that "piracy" has the same ground rules. because all animes are allowed, to be distributed and fansubbed if their is no profit being made. If you guys dont take money im sure it would be fine because its not licensed by any American companies. - I could be wrong but i did do a paper about piracy and if everything is the same of distributing a "copy" of foreign products it shouldn't be illegal unless the laws have changed
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Unread postby thecrimina1 » March 27th, 2007, 10:34 pm

so thats why i cant download it...... : (
dont tell me that FSN is gonna be the same that would suck......
Btw are you sure that "piracy" has the same ground rules. because all animes are allowed, to be distributed and fansubbed if their is no profit being made. If you guys dont take money im sure it would be fine because its not licensed by any American companies. - I could be wrong but i did do a paper about piracy and if everything is the same of distributing a "copy" of foreign products it shouldn't be illegal unless the laws have changed


Well anime are different because of methods of distribution. the latest anime are viewed only on Japanese TV airwaves, and being unavailable on DVD, are in a gray area as far as copyright goes, even for the DMCA (digital millenium copyright act). fansubbers/sites are allowed to distribute unlicensed animes because they are not officially available/legally so in the U.S. (it would be a copyright violation if it were before it were licensed in the U.S.) games are a little different though, because what's copyrighted is the coding. I guess the only thing we could really do is to sell to and back to each other in this community so that we don't violate the DMCA or fair use act. i think that's illegal for the forum though, so I wanna say I'm not propagating the idea.

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Unread postby c15zyx » March 27th, 2007, 10:39 pm

LOL, just because no money is being made, doesn't make it legal. That argument is just as useless as the one pirates make when they say- "Oh, no money was lost, because I wouldn't have bought it anyway." Well, if you aren't going to pay for it, you don't have the right and license to *use* it. There are gray-areas in terms of personal backups for items you are personally licensed to use, but court cases testing such freedoms are few and far between.

On the contrary pretty much all distribution of raw and fansubbed anime online can be considered 'unauthorized use' by the IP holders (unauthorized recording/playback/copying/derivative works). Evidence of this can be found in the numerous cease-and-desist letters to fansub groups by parent companies even for series unlicensed in areas outside of Japan. The reason so many infringements continue to exist (YouTube LOL) is lack of effort or manpower placed into enforcing such rules. Also applying this to the Tsukihime CD and anime, property has no *right* to be made available everywhere at anytime... just because it isn't licensed for retail distribution in your country doesn't make piracy acceptable since IP owner rights and end-user license agreements for software still apply.
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Unread postby thecrimina1 » March 28th, 2007, 12:51 am

I can agree with a lot of what you say in the first part, if I were proposing that piracy is good, but I did not intend to say that. Yeah, I made a mistake, but I realized it and made amends. I can't really agree with the second part of your statement, though, because the gray areas with regards to media mostly unreleased here is more gray (quite literally, with the existence of the gray market). anyone in the US owning a copy of retail only meant for a particular country is in the gray, because those products are only meant to be sold in particular areas, yet consumers here pay for those products and consider themselves rightfully owning them. if tsukihime was conceived, coded, etc. in my country then i agree that the freedoms would be fewer and farther, but because it isn't released (i know the anime is, but I do not believe the game is) it enters as a gray market item, so things can become tricky. anime fansubbing is also not without profit for the companies; they use fansubs as a way to get free market research. if there was no benefit such as this, i'm sure they would do more than just write an angry letter (team america! **** yeah!). with that, i don't think that there is a lack of man power though, given the example we saw with the crackdown on P2Ps like Napster and Kazaa (I know the latter still exists but I don't know of many people still using it). if companies wanted fansubbing shut down, it would be easy to cite the DMCA and use government to shut down these sites (i don't see people direct downloading neon genesis evangelion episodes off sites like they did back in the 90s). beyond that rules are also relative as far as location, so I cannot really comment because if someone did the stuff in Japan and hypothetically it was legal there, then if someone were to acquire it here then it would not be tried (if someone were a butt head they could file in place of but I don't know how that'd go). If anyone knows of piratebay they know exactly what i'm talking about, because the US intervened, not the Swedish. I again agree on some points but decline on others, and I want to say I'm NOT advocating piracy. i just made a mistake and have tried to amend it. I would be glad to buy a copy from someone in this forum and then resell it to someone else in the community (maybe even the same person, so they can bask in the knowledge that they own the original hard copy). is that legal? grayness, because then the person sells the rights and it would be someone reselling the rights.
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Unread postby c15zyx » March 28th, 2007, 1:21 am

Yes, the 'gray-ness' of the gray areas isn't always so cut-and-dry. Man power is definitely an issue, just look at the US domestic situation with music and video distribution, I'm sure quite a number of organizations would love a nationwide crackdown on distribution, but instead they usually just make examples of a few specific people as a weak scare tactic. That and the complication of having servers and clients outside the U.S. There are much fewer crackdowns on anime because some of the burden (especially for anime unlicensed in the U.S.) relies on the companies in Japan, many of which have no desire, time, or resources to pursue such legalities outside their primary sphere of influence (obvious cost-benefit ratio).

While observing the fansubbing communities can be educational for U.S. and possibly even Japanese companies, I doubt any of them actually condone the practice although they acknowledge the existence of subbing (see ANN article on Haruhi a while back). Yes, there is a slight promotional aspect, but the US companies can manage that even more effectively on their own if they wish- ie. Fullmetal Alchemist. There isn't any benefit to the companies, but again the necessary effort and resources outweigh any temporary halt in such activities (there will always be subbers) and so they often turn a blind eye.

As for the proliferation of anime like NGE and direct download sites, well obviously that's because no one uses direct download anymore LOL. NGE and many others are very alive and well in the sharing community, tho on the record I'm not saying this from my experience of course...

In regards to U.S. customers paying for foreign products and 'owning' them, well that is of course commonplace. The problem is only when people use reduced availability as an excuse not to pay for or to distribute illegal copies. Conditions for the resale or transfer of usage rights and physical media are covered in most end-user licenses , it's just that not everyone bothers to read them.
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Unread postby Question » March 28th, 2007, 1:40 am

I see it more as an ethical issue. Type-Moon isnt losing any money from piracy of Tsukihime......if anything, they are losing money from their own business decision not to make more copies of the game for sale. They are hardly in a position to go "WE R LOSING MONIES LOL".

Theres a huge difference between pirating a game available for sale and one that isnt.
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Unread postby miszou » March 28th, 2007, 3:50 am

ok, I think this kind of got offtopic ^^;;

It doesn't matter if it is legal, grey or illegal, it is simply not allow on this board :] except the talk about the tranlation patches of the games, which are also unauthorized, but allowed it here for obvious reasons.

The game is hardly more diffeicult to get then when it was in print I think, since the game was never that easy to get if you don't live in Japan. At least in Japan I find absolutely no diffciulty in getting the game in Game shops that sell used pc-games. Although the price is at least a ten fold of the orignal price, thats the only real problem :(
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Unread postby Hyperbeast » March 28th, 2007, 8:09 am

Actually haseottod, seeing as you brought it up...
There was a convention *can't remember the name of it* passed around the end of 2005 that made it illegal to distribute Japanese material to the US even if it isn't lisenced *by distribute I mean what would be considered illegally, i.e. file sharing, torrents etc..*.That basically made anime distribution illegal. I'm not sure if there's any special stance on fan-subs however.

Anyway, that may have already been addressed. I used a quick search for convention and nothing came up, but this thread is way too long for me to both reading right now.
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Unread postby miszou » March 28th, 2007, 10:53 am

Question wrote:I see it more as an ethical issue. Type-Moon isnt losing any money from piracy of Tsukihime......if anything, they are losing money from their own business decision not to make more copies of the game for sale. They are hardly in a position to go "WE R LOSING MONIES LOL".

Theres a huge difference between pirating a game available for sale and one that isnt.


actually, there is no difference ;) Or are you saying it is ok to steal from rich people just because they have more money? If something is not legal, it is simply not legal. Moral set aside of course. Moral en ethics have nothing to do with law, maybe with those who enforce the law :]

besides, 'suppose' the decide to release the game, there would be indeed loss in sales due to the earlier pirating. So your argument does not stand at all.

And it's not always about losing money. Fan translation for example, they are not authorized and therefor the author has no influence on them. Therefor someone can freely butcher his work and present it as the real thing. That's why fan translations are also not legal, to protect the work, not because of money loss.

Of course this is what I think is the case, not what I endorse. I do like fan translation, since they are usually more accurate then official translation (which sometimes butcher a stroy way worse), but morally, they are not justified with arguments like that.

Anime fans usually believe that it is not illegal to distribute anime and all. Which is wrong, it is not legal at all, there is just no chance of someone suing you, but that does not make it illegal.

In Japan doujinshi has a huge market and is widely supported. BUT all parody doujinshi (a huge percentage of all doujinshi) is not legal. Usually no one will sue, but that does not make it legal :] (actuall, a doujinshi circle DID got sued in Japan recently XD).

Distributing others work is almost never legal. Sometimes the original owner might not have anything against it and endorses it, but even that does not make it legally, maybe ethically :]
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Unread postby haseottod » March 28th, 2007, 4:13 pm

lol i didnt mean it like that i just made i small phrase to summarize it
"LOL, just because no money is being made, doesn't make it legal."
dude that was somewhat of an offensive statement to me, im not an idiot and you make me sound like one. It's just on a forum i would rather not write a 10 page paper of piracy laws or about piracy for that matter....
i do not use piracy or agree with it for everyones information, since it seems like thats what you guys think of me -_-
On a side not if we do purchase games from japan is their any way to translate them besides self translation? I am in the process of learning but not able to translate at the moment. i really wanna play the fsn u guys are subbing and the flame of recca game.
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Unread postby Question » March 28th, 2007, 6:31 pm

Legal wise there is no difference. Reality wise theres a difference.

Also, in THEORY, someone could do a fan translation of an existing work and butcher it to the point where it is not only completely unrecognizable but completely different, E.G. i could write up some BS and turn kara no kyoukai into a shitty erotic novel.

This hasnt happened, and isnt likely to happen in the future. Its like saying "We shouldnt give policemen guns because in THEORY they could all start shooting people on the street for the hell of it!".

The chances of someones spending days writing pure garbage and attempting to claim it is a translation of an existing work is more or less nil. Even if it DID happen no one would believe it was a true translation anyway.
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the legality part?

Unread postby thecrimina1 » March 28th, 2007, 7:33 pm

mmm, I agree with that. also, about parodies of doujinshi being illegal in japan; that is an example of contradiction between the U.S. and Japan where in the U.S. satirical presentations (usually public figures/events/items/etc.) do not fall under infringement. The laws are not universal, and ultimately i think this is a moral question because laws are the morals of the general community put onto paper. This is different because the item in question is no longer in production or within the normal retail reach of people outside of Japan. even domestically (according to earlier post(s)) the item is not readily available. microsize the situation to a playground scenario where one kid claims all the toys in a box for him/herself. other kids want to have them but he keeps them; they're there and available through difficult means, but they're probably not going to get them. we know that a third party would come in and force the child to share. if tsukihime were readily available in japan (thereby allowing other countries to purchase through Japan item shipping websites/stores) then this would be different, but because it isn't, it would seem more akin to that playground scenario. not to hammer on type-moon, because the game is their intellectual property and they're great for having been the first to think/create the game and series, but if they're not going to distribute, it's essentially cutting newcomers and others of the community from the item at a reasonable/the normal value(paying 8-10x the price would seem to be more like extortion than selling).

Is this too off topic even if i put a subject thing? I know I made a misstep and wanted to amend a request. Please PM me about this because I think advertising is against the rules here.
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Re: the legality part?

Unread postby c15zyx » March 29th, 2007, 2:58 am

thecrimina1 wrote:... other kids want to have them but he keeps them; they're there and available through difficult means, but they're probably not going to get them. we know that a third party would come in and force the child to share. ... it's essentially cutting newcomers and others of the community from the item at a reasonable/the normal value(paying 8-10x the price would seem to be more like extortion than selling).


It would be nice if more people had access, however a third party has no right to force the 'kid' to share (though people may get annoyed at him/her)... If you arrive late to a final clearance sale, expect to get little or nothing, though the first people there may have left with bags of stuff. Are they supposed to be forced to share too? It may be unfair (for the latecomers at least :) ), but that's life and it's not illegal.

As for the raised prices... well *time* (and thus scarcity) does have a habit of doing this. Look on ebay for a lot of classic video games that have gone out of print. Yet some people still pay hundreds of dollars for them. Is this extortion? Some people would think so, other people would find it a bargain to own one of the few remaining copies of antique items that can appreciate in value over time. Expecting the same kind of availability and pricing for an indefinite period of time is unrealistic.
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Unread postby miszou » March 29th, 2007, 6:53 am

well in the end it's not about what is fair and all, those are just moral questions, like i said before, the law is the law and does not necessarily be there to be fair. I do not agree on a lot of laws of most countries, but i will still have to abide them if I'm there.

Even if you think you are morally entitled to do those things, they are still your thought on it, other people might not think so. So in the end the law is there to draw 1 line whether you agree or not, you should abide :]

And again, it doesn't even matter here if you think it is fair or not, on this board there it is just forbidden, so we have to respect that regardless of what we think about it, its not bad complaining about, but it's just pointless here I think, there a billions of these threads and they are not discussion anyone can win since they involve morals, which are different with each person ^^ So just keep abiding the rules on this board to talk here I think :]


As a last thing, Tsukihime might be out of print, but is still easy to get if you really want. The price is high yes, but I think the price of a lot of things is high, if you don't want it that bad, don't play it. It's not like type-moon really can't sleep at night thinking about people not being able to play their game (they're way to busy making money from the FSN products XD).

And yes I'm also a hypocrite, since I do listen to pirated music and stuff (which is actually legal where I live) but I do spend a lot of money on buying the things I really like (like tsukihime ^^), but thats not the case here, the only thing that matters on this board is that we do not talk about getting warez or pirated stuff in any way :]
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