Tsukihime Story Discussion - MASSIVE SPOILERS

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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 3:25 am

I believe that children are required to receive at least elementary level of education in Japan. So Kohaku and Hisui probably graduated the elementary school.

Being a caretaker would be not so horrible if your employer is a really wealthy family like Tohnos. Because of their mother commiting a taboo, their family was ruined(to which extent is not clear, since it is not mentioned), therefore they probably had nowhere else to go. Makihisa took them in, most likely to take advantage of their ability, but nonetheless he stayed as their guardian till their legal age.

Actually, the sisters probably didn't work as maids when they were young. Hisui especially is depicted as Shiki and Akiha's childhood friend, so she might not have put to work when they were all young. The same could be said for Kohaku, except, well, what Makihisa used her for. But since that part of her life was kept secret, at least on the outer appearance, the Tohnos probably took care of the sisters as it would with theirs. Sure, I doubt they received kind of education SHIKI and Akiha got, but them being the children of the head of the family, that is to be expected.

It is not clear when the sisters started to train as maids, but there would have been more than just houseworks in their training. We know for sure that Kohaku received medical training under the family doctor, and according to Kagetsu Tohya(even though this is considered a parody, we can assume that the background information is the same), she even has some sort of a pharmaceutical license, although it doesn't say what kind(may not be western medicine, and more of traditional kind, which requires different kind of requirements).

Japan, because of its long history of feudal system, it is not so uncommon for some traditional family to have a live-in caretakers. They are not typical maids common in US, and their job needs more than simple cleaning and cooking. They receive vigorous etiquette lessons, including Tea ceremony and even calligraphy, and sometimes a foreign language or two. They are considered to be more than simple servants or houseworkers, and their status is closer to a vassal of a noble house.

In turn, the employer literally takes care of their caretakers. In many cases, if they are willing, the employing family often pays for the caretakers or their children's college education. Anything short of betrayal, they rarely loses their position. When they are let go, they are heavily compensated, regardless of circumstances(which actually emphesizes how big a deal it was for Akiha to let go of all other caretakers from their mansion shortly before Shiki returns). Because of this, even in modern Japan, the caretakers' career is often passed down to their children(although this is becoming much rarer nowadays). So seeing the sisters as simple, uneducated peons may not be a correct view.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 17th, 2008, 4:03 am

Not the point I was trying to make chasmirror.

Actually, the sisters probably didn't work as maids when they were young.


They are still young! 16-18?

---

I'm somewhat familiar with Japanese maids from social studies, 'maids' as it were were wiped out post-WW2. Live-in maids no longer exist in the developed world because of various socio-economic circumstances. Chiefly, it is no longer possible to pay people enough so they would stay with a family for extended periods of time, if you do pay them out rageous amount of money, the first thing they would do is to save up sufficiently so they can get the hell away from you. No money is worth your freedom and time, and that is what you're giving up as servants. In short, maids as depicted do not exist in the modern world.

For that reason, Hisui and Kohaku must have been coerced in some way. Any trust fund system for 'employees' would be highly illegal and improper. Not to mention the mere fact of child labor makes me really pissed. I can't believe you're defending them.

Education is only one of the things that they have been cheated out of, regardless of whatever they recieved. Remember that Shiki went to a public school, is that really too much to ask for? Also remember that Junior high school is mandatory in Japan. If they have not recieved this education (and they haven't, Hisui mentioned not being out of the mansion for years, sufficient time to not have attended junior high), then that's yet another law broken.

I'm not sure how foster parenting works in Japan but I'm sure that foster children != servants!

In short, there is no excuse for the Tohnos, Makihisa or his kids. They are all slavers. It's just a little bit unrealistic to me that such a senario could exist. Someone needs to call the cops on these people already.
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 4:21 am

Miraploy wrote:Not the point I was trying to make chasmirror.

Actually, the sisters probably didn't work as maids when they were young.


They are still young! 16-18?

---

I'm somewhat familiar with Japanese maids from social studies, 'maids' as it were were wiped out post-WW2. Live-in maids no longer exist in the developed world because of various socio-economic circumstances. Chiefly, it is no longer possible to pay people enough so they would stay with a family for extended periods of time, if you do pay them out rageous amount of money, the first thing they would do is to save up sufficiently so they can get the hell away from you. No money is worth your freedom and time, and that is what you're giving up as servants. In short, maids as depicted do not exist in the modern world.

For that reason, Hisui and Kohaku must have been coerced in some way. Any trust fund system for 'employees' would be highly illegal and improper. Not to mention the mere fact of child labor makes me really pissed. I can't believe you're defending them.

Education is only one of the things that they have been cheated out of, regardless of whatever they recieved. Remember that Shiki went to a public school, is that really too much to ask for? Also remember that Junior high school is mandatory in Japan. If they have not recieved this education (and they haven't, Hisui mentioned not being out of the mansion for years, sufficient time to not have attended junior high), then that's yet another law broken.

I'm not sure how foster parenting works in Japan but I'm sure that foster children != servants!

In short, there is no excuse for the Tohnos, Makihisa or his kids. They are all slavers. It's just a little bit unrealistic to me that such a senario could exist. Someone needs to call the cops on these people already.


First of all, Mirapoly, the social studies teach you what NORMALLY happens in Japan. Tohno family, prestige-wise and wealth-wise, is by no mean a normal family. The rich and famous people in US live and spend money in ways that are incomprehensible by any standard, but do you think the social studies in ANY country would teach that to their students?

Beside, the concept of live-in caretakers in such a traditional sense is very common in Japanese pop culture. For example, the manga and anime series Fruits Basket showed many instances of such caretakers in the house(to certain extent, the main heroine Tohru was also the case). Ranma series had many characters who were literally family vassals of other characters. So you must see this as more of a creative liberty than actual social situation. Yes, a normal Japanese family wouldn't fit the profile, but like I said, Tohnos are not normal, by any mean. I mean, no regular US family has a butler, but Bruce Wayne has had Albert for literally decades. :)

I agree with you about Makihisa, but Akiha's case is a bit different. Akiha made Kohaku her personal servant IN ORDER TO protect her from her father, after discovering what he had been doing to the girl when Akiha was a junior high student. Hisui, after realizing what her sister has done to protect her, swore never to leave the Tohno mansion as a punishment for herself. This probably contributed to her decision to stay as a maid.

Shiki has no say in the sisters' fate, as he really holds no power within the Tohno family. Since the sisters know the intimate secret of the family, even if Akiha was to free them, it is seriously doubtful that the other family members would leave them alone. Because of her age, Akiha does not yield absolute authority over the family. Keeping them at her side is the best Akiha can do for them at this point.

True, had they not come into Tohno mansion to begin with, things might have been a lot better for them. Makihisa, wanting their ability, interrupted and basically messed up their lives. But the Tohno children are doing what they can do to protect them.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 17th, 2008, 5:37 am

chasmirror wrote:First of all, Mirapoly, the social studies teach you what NORMALLY happens in Japan. Tohno family, prestige-wise and wealth-wise, is by no mean a normal family. The rich and famous people in US live and spend money in ways that are incomprehensible by any standard, but do you think the social studies in ANY country would teach that to their students?


No. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

I can probably safely assume you've never gone through the maid hiring experience, but there are no more maids of that nature to be found, anywhere (in the developed world). Are there professional maids and bulters? Yes. My household manager for instance went to an expensive vocational school to learn all the niceties of such things. But that's a very recent development, where being a servant has its own visible career path. The traditional image of maids no longer exist. There's simply no way to get around it.

You also do not raise servants. You should learn that there are some things money can't buy, and that includes people's lives. There can be no excuses, the Tohnos are slavers, both illegal and immoral. For Akiha and Shiki to perpetuate the system is absolutely 100% wrong. To say that they are powerless is inadmissible. In fact, every person who had an understanding of their situation is responsible. "It wasn't in my control" was not a valid excuse for the lower-ranking Nazis and is not a valid excuse for the Tohnos.

It's still boggling my mind that you're arguing in favor of slavery/human trafficking. Hello?
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Unread postby abscess » May 17th, 2008, 6:31 am

Well, getting a bit on those standards and trying to apply them to really-motherfrakking-wealthy-nonexistent families in games, more specifically Tsukihime, it's not a strange idea to think that they could have recieved education at least in the elementary level attending a normal school, and if it is mandatory for children to go through junior high level education, they could very well have recieved it inside of the mansion, perhaps even both of them.

As cashmirror said earlier, they must have had not only taken normal studies, but etiquette, calligraphy, perhaps even enology and foreign languages. That would mean that they could be actually smarter than how they may seem.

Miraploy wrote: For that reason, Hisui and Kohaku must have been coerced in some way [...]

I doubt Hisui would have been coerced. I think it's said that Hisui lived a very easy life as a child, maybe as a teenager too. Kohaku may have been kinda coerced for her to stay at Makihisa's side for some "fun times" but after Akiha stepped in to rescue her, I think the reason she stayed was because she considered herself a doll without a will of her own until she snapped and went on with the scheming thing and to keep with it she had to stay there.

Miraploy wrote:In short, there is no excuse for the Tohnos, Makihisa or his kids. They are all slavers. It's just a little bit unrealistic to me that such a senario could exist. Someone needs to call the cops on these people already.


I think you are stretching things here a bit, mate. We all know that Makihisa is not beyond slavery, since he himself locked up his very own son in a cell for eight goddamn years, wiped out an entire clan of super-inbreds out of fear (or something), kept a child at his side as some kind of a magical inflatable doll and Nasu knows what much else the guy had done (I really dunno why but he reminds me of Rick James!), but Akiha is not the same as his "cool daddy" since she considers she helped Kohaku but she fell in the plotting game of her and decided to keep with it out of guilt (kinda stupid if you ask me).

On the child exploitation side, I don't doubt that they had been working as maids for at least two, three, or even four years. Child labor is, as far as I know, illegal in Japan but hey! It's a rich family, man! They do freaky stuff sometimes just for the lulz! And if someone happened to call the cops on 'em they would just pull some simple strings to "solve" everything.

For them to keep on staying in the mansion, as I said earlier, it's more of a decision than a forced order. This is very, very stupid but part of the reason, and I'd say an important one, is that Shiki has finally come back and they all want to be with him in any form (hurray for his strange magical pheromones). The other reasons I think have already been mentioned in other posts and in other parts of this post.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to find a way to shut the fuck up a neighbor's dog. It's been barking for two goddamn hours straight, for fucks sake!!
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Atriel » May 17th, 2008, 6:31 am

Why would the Tohno family be in trouble because of 2 kids? They wiped out a whole family and they are ok, who knows how many strings they can pull. It's the power of money, and that's the way it is.

Hisui and Kohaku could pretty much run away if they wanted to but why would they leave in the first place? At that part of the story there's no point. The source of their suffering is dead. They even like Shiki and Akiha.

Sure they can leave and get their own cafe as pointed out in a sidestory. Heck they probably will later on. I don't remember seeing a "And they were in the Tohno house 'till they died".



I don't think it's that unrealistic, i have seen worse.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to find a way to shut the fuck up a neighbor's dog. It's been barking for two goddamn hours straight, for fucks sake!!


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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 6:46 am

Miraploy wrote:No. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

I can probably safely assume you've never gone through the maid hiring experience, but there are no more maids of that nature to be found, anywhere (in the developed world). Are there professional maids and bulters? Yes. My household manager for instance went to an expensive vocational school to learn all the niceties of such things. But that's a very recent development, where being a servant has its own visible career path. The traditional image of maids no longer exist. There's simply no way to get around it.

You also do not raise servants. You should learn that there are some things money can't buy, and that includes people's lives. There can be no excuses, the Tohnos are slavers, both illegal and immoral. For Akiha and Shiki to perpetuate the system is absolutely 100% wrong. To say that they are powerless is inadmissible. In fact, every person who had an understanding of their situation is responsible. "It wasn't in my control" was not a valid excuse for the lower-ranking Nazis and is not a valid excuse for the Tohnos.

It's still boggling my mind that you're arguing in favor of slavery/human trafficking. Hello?


You haven't read my post AT ALL, have you? You haven't gotten a thing I've said. Also, how can you even think I am advocating for the slavery? If you actually read my post, you wouldn't say a thing like that. At this point, seeing your arguement both here and the other one, I am beginning to think that you are just trying to bait me.

Maybe you have a problem reading a long paragraph, so I will try this.

First, the sisters' mother commited a taboo, so the family was broken, leaving the sisters basically orphaned.

Then Makihisa, knowing their power, offered to take care of them, AS GUARDIANS. Initially, the girls were not working.

Hisui played with Shiki and Akiha, but Kohaku suffered under Makihisa's watch. The two sisters probably went to elementary school at this point.

The sisters were raised at Tohno mansion, but still, not as servants. Makihisa, the head of the house, was their guardian.

Then Akiha found out what her father has been doing. In order to PROTECT Kohaku, she declared that Kohaku would work as her personal maid. This way, the sisters can still live under the care of Tohno family, without being tormented by Makihisa, who was afraid that Akiha would expose his shame.

Hisui, realizing the kind of hardship her sister went through to protect her, decided never to leave the mansion and stay with her sister, resulting in her joining Kohaku as the maid.

Makihisa dies, and Akiha, despite the protest from other family members, let go of other caretakers and kick out other family members from Tohno mansion, and brought back Shiki.

At this point, the sisters know too much about the secrets of Tohno family, and Akiha doesn't have enough authority to silence the opposition. So she keeps them with her to protect them.

Get it? I am saying the sisters WEREN'T brought in as maids. Shiki's memory about his childhood with them goes against that. At least Hisui was playing like a normal child in the house.

It wasn't that they were raised as servants, but later joined the staff among complicated circumstances. Kohaku, in Akiha's attempt to protect her, and Hisui, as a punishment on her own for the sacrifice her sister made.

On top of all this, I was also saying that the concept of having such caretakers in the house might sound unrealistic, but not so unheard of within the creative liberty taken by the Japanese pop culture. Like I said before, Bruce Wayne has a butler! So just think of the sisters as Akiha's Albert! Is that so hard to understand?

Please read the post this time before trying to debate me.
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Unread postby abscess » May 17th, 2008, 7:02 am

@cashmirror
Oh my, long post is long. I thought that they were brought as... I don't know the right term, guarded? but Makihisa had the intention of having them as servants from the very beggining. I think it's said that the have been working for a while now so that's what made me think that. Say, what you said about Kohaku's "elaborate" childhood and Hisui's anger at herself and Akihas inability to shut the family, is it from the Dokuhon? My memory has been playing tricks on me again, but I don't remember all of that was said in the game.

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Unread postby Miraploy » May 17th, 2008, 7:18 am

chasmirror, once again you completely fail to address anything I've raised.

Did it not occur to you that I already know/agree with everything you've posted on this subject? Nothing you've said is original or at all addresses the point of how it was possible for the girls to be forced into servitude.

And ffs, they were brought in as slaves. Makihisa's whole purpose was to use them to suppress his inversion. There's a very clear reason why they weren't adopted as Shiki was.

The issue is, as it's always been, two fold.

1. How this slavery setup could be possible for a family of some respectibility (as opposed to gangsters or actual human traffickers).
2. And Akiha and Shiki's moral responsibility to stop it.

Your arguments, were:
1. Well it's fantasy!
We know that! But fantasy or not, Tsukihime is a really cool world, and if you can't imagine some kind of crossproduct between Tsukihime and the real world, gah!

and

2. They're not responsible because they're not in control.
That's really the weakest argument. If they had a phone, they could call the police, regardless of whether or not it was effectual. Especially after the death of Makihisa.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 17th, 2008, 7:53 am

Wow...
I think you are both right and wrong chassmirror and miraploy.

First I think the twins weren 't adopted to become Servants anything else.
Makihisa just needed them to be there in case of a II (Inverted Impulse)
Well the fact that they were adopted like Shiki is something obvious.

Moreover I think they didn't ever attended a school since:

Hisui said she has never been out of the mansion.
Kohaku had only done so with Akiha in the vacations and that only after she turned into a doll.

Miraploy you could say they were legally kidnapped by a family with both economical and supernatural power. How do you expect that a little child can stand against such a thing?

Well thats my opininon
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 8:31 am

Miraploy wrote:1. How this slavery setup could be possible for a family of some respectibility (as opposed to gangsters or actual human traffickers).
2. And Akiha and Shiki's moral responsibility to stop it.

Your arguments, were:
1. Well it's fantasy!
We know that! But fantasy or not, Tsukihime is a really cool world, and if you can't imagine some kind of crossproduct between Tsukihime and the real world, gah!

and

2. They're not responsible because they're not in control.
That's really the weakest argument. If they had a phone, they could call the police, regardless of whether or not it was effectual. Especially after the death of Makihisa.


Again, you completely missed my argument.

1. It was not slavery since it was not a kidnapping, nor abduction for slavery. I am saying Makihisa LEGALLY became their guardian. Makihisa took them in for their power, not their labor, a secret that he had hidden well from others. So as far as people are concerned, the sisters were just two orphans that Makihisa took a pity on. THEY WEREN'T BEING RAISED TO BE MAIDS. They later become maids, but I am saying they are maids just like Albert was a butler for Batman. They are working as maids, not as slaves. A normal family cannot afford to hire a butler, but Bruce Wayne can. Just like that, Tohno family can afford to hire maids. The sisters, who have grown up in the mansion since their childhood, somehow ended up as maids working there. They were not brainwashed to be maids. The circumstances steered them to be.

2. Like I said above, they were not slaves to be reported. Makihisa was their legal guardian. Besides, a powerful family like Tohno could probably hush up any police, but they wouldn't have to in this case. They weren't worked like dogs. Hisui spent her childhood as Akiha and Shiki's friend. Kohaku, other than being Makihisa's toy, was not known to do any other chores. True, Makihisa had ulterior motive. But for those who didn't know better, including Shiki and Akiha, he was simply a man who took in two orphan sisters.
Last edited by chasmirror on May 17th, 2008, 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 8:37 am

zweiterversuch wrote:Moreover I think they didn't ever attended a school since:

Hisui said she has never been out of the mansion.
Kohaku had only done so with Akiha in the vacations and that only after she turned into a doll.


That is true. But many children would say they just stayed at home, and discount their daily life at school as a part of their home life. So we can't say for certain that the sisters stayed only inside the mansion. Kohaku has a driver's license, so she obviously had left the mansion before, and Hisui must have gone outside for errands and stuffs. Considering that it is mandatory to send underaged children at least to an elementary school in Japan, it is not that far off to assume that the sisters did go to school, or in the least, home-schooled.
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 8:43 am

abscess wrote:@cashmirror
Oh my, long post is long. I thought that they were brought as... I don't know the right term, guarded? but Makihisa had the intention of having them as servants from the very beggining. I think it's said that the have been working for a while now so that's what made me think that. Say, what you said about Kohaku's "elaborate" childhood and Hisui's anger at herself and Akihas inability to shut the family, is it from the Dokuhon? My memory has been playing tricks on me again, but I don't remember all of that was said in the game.

P.S: Yay! Silence! Finally!!!


The most of the stuff I've said was from the Tsukihime game. Kohaku mentions that Akiha discovered her and Makihisa together and put a stop to it. Hisui confesses to Shiki how much she regrets for the sacrifice that her sister had made for her, and how she tried to punish herself for it.

As for Akiha's inability to silence the family, it is more like an impression I got from playing the game. Kohaku(or was it Hisui) said Shiki's return to Tohno mansion stirred up a lot of protest from other family members. Even in Kagetsu Tohya, Akiha laments how the Tohno people are nagging on her despite her being the head. After all, Akiha is only what, 16, 17?

Beside, had Akiha had complete control over the family, she wouldn't have kept that middle-aged chubby principal of Shiki's school as her fiance. :?
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 17th, 2008, 8:49 am

chasmirror wrote:
zweiterversuch wrote:Moreover I think they didn't ever attended a school since:

Hisui said she has never been out of the mansion.
Kohaku had only done so with Akiha in the vacations and that only after she turned into a doll.


That is true. But many children would say they just stayed at home, and discount their daily life at school as a part of their home life. So we can't say for certain that the sisters stayed only inside the mansion. Kohaku has a driver's license, so she obviously had left the mansion before, and Hisui must have gone outside for errands and stuffs. Considering that it is mandatory to send underaged children at least to an elementary school in Japan, it is not that far off to assume that the sisters did go to school, or in the least, home-schooled.




Kohaku doesn't have a driver's license.
Akiha has a Driver. I am pretty sure of that since I have seen Kohaku in the mansion after Akiha left for School.
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Unread postby abscess » May 17th, 2008, 8:52 am

Miraploy wrote:And ffs, they were brought in as slaves. Makihisa's whole purpose was to use them to suppress his inversion. There's a very clear reason why they weren't adopted as Shiki was.

Officialy speaking is that they are NOT brought in the Tohno household as slaves/sex-toys or whatever, they are someone else's family that Makihisa takes care of. Inside of the official mask that the Tohno's show to the public, Makihisa intended to USE them as synchro-chicks but ends up using only one. You must really make a difference between the official and real intentions here.

I know I may be talking semantics here, but slaves are different from maids and both are different from the role that Makihisa wants them to fullfil. Slaves aren't paid, are considered objects and have no rights. After "cool daddy" is gone, they can never be considered as slaves in any way. Kohaku can be considered as a former child sex-slave, but only Kohaku, not Hisui

Miraploy wrote:Your arguments, were:
1. Well it's fantasy!
We know that! But fantasy or not, Tsukihime is a really cool world, and if you can't imagine some kind of crossproduct between Tsukihime and the real world, gah!

Well, yes, but there is a limit to it. You can't compare them side to side and expect the same thing or similar products at least. In the Nasuverse the soul exists!! The Earth is alive and the Moon created stuff that came down to Earth, magic exists in that world but not on this one. You can't stretch so much the fantasy world to make it fit by force into this one.

Miraploy wrote:2. They're not responsible because they're not in control.
That's really the weakest argument. If they had a phone, they could call the police, regardless of whether or not it was effectual. Especially after the death of Makihisa.

The HAVE a phone, it's used and reffered to in the game. I see no reason to do something that will cause no effect as calling the police when there is nothing that can be done. They stayed there because that's what they decided. A stupid decision? You bet.

Miraploy wrote:1. How this slavery setup could be possible for a family of some respectibility (as opposed to gangsters or actual human traffickers).

As I said before, and as has been stated so many times before, Makihisa is a fucking badass who cares about HIS family and HIM, as far as we know he doesn't care about anything else. For the public eyes he could be very well a nice and charming fellow that takes other people's children under his care, maybe not through adoption but still answering to the needs of the children. Public face and real intentions had been, still are, and will be, two different things that don't necessarily represent the same thing, get my drift?

Miraploy wrote:2. And Akiha and Shiki's moral responsibility to stop it.

Let's say you have a dog with only 3 legs, the dog loves you a lot and you seem to like it. For a strange reason outside of your house three-legged dogs are banned and must be executed on sight. Your dog wants oh so much to go outside, run as much as a crippled dog can in the beautiful green fields bathing under the sunrays and feel the breeze brushing against it's ears and maybe take a dump or two on real grass and not on the concreted floor of your backyard. You are convinced that the dog would be much happier outside of your house but it would be killed maybe after 10 minutes of its excursion into this new world. Would you keep your dog inside your house having a simple, but long, happiness or let it be blissful for 10 minutes or so?

It's not a perfect analogy, but it makes laugh a bit. Let's go with what cashmirror said that Akiha can't really do much but keep them as servants. If they live outside of the Tohno household for the rest of their lives, they could be attacked by the rest of the Tohno branch families. Having a dark secret linger free is never a good idea when talking about important families. Now consider that they are actually happy living in the mansion and really don't miss much "the outside world" Do you think that Shiki and Akiha would kick them out knowing that?

Not taking into account what cashmirror said, since I can't prove if it's canonical or not, They still are there because they want to! Education or not, the are happy there.

weiterversuch wrote:Moreover I think they didn't ever attended a school since:

I disagree with you. I don't know if is said when they were brought into the household, but they could have been attending an elementary school during their childhood and during Shiki's stay in the mansion and finish it. As far as I know, in Japan elementary school is 6 years, while junior high is 3 and their higschool is 3, if I'm mistaken PLEASE correct me. If my data is correct, they could have finished their elementary studies with not much of a problem. And, as I said earlier, they could have been tutored for the junior high in the mansion. Having two ignorant girls taking care of the mansion wouldn't be very well seen in the public eye.

weiterversuch wrote:Hisui said she has never been out of the mansion.
Kohaku had only done so with Akiha in the vacations and that only after she turned into a doll.

I don't remember that Hisui said she has NEVER left the mansion and Kohaku does so very little and only with Akiha. I think that Hisui doesn't leave the mansion because of what she decided after knowing how her sister was raped continuously. If I remember correctly that was about four years before Tsukihime. I agree that Kohaku may not go out that often, but she can go out if she wants, at least she goes out for grocery shopping and such.

weiterversuch wrote:Miraploy you could say they were legally kidnapped by a family with both economical and supernatural power. How do you expect that a little child can stand against such a thing?

There are no legal kidnappings in Japan, my friend. Kidnapping is illegal. Leaving semantics aside, you are very right, if they wanted to get the fuck out of there but the Tohnos, branch families and all, wouldn't let them, then they can't do much. Cops and all, they can all be bought or exterminated if need be. But, as I already said in this post and in previous posts, they are there because they want to....

chasmirror wrote:Beside, had Akiha had complete control over the family, she wouldn't have kept that middle-aged chubby principal of Shiki's school as her fiance.

I think she doesn't keep that chubby fella as his fiance. From what I remember that was actually just a joke from KT.

weiterversuch wrote:Kohaku doesn't have a driver's license.
Akiha has a Driver. I am pretty sure of that since I have seen Kohaku in the mansion after Akiha left for School.

I'm with you in this one. I don't remember seeing any scene where Kohaku offers to drive the car. The interesting thing is that the driver is never shown nor mentioned in any conversation. I am sure that the driver is the most unknown character in the nasuverse!


From what I get, no one in the outside of the mansion really cares much whatever happens to the maids. They could be found dead in a hole, win the nobel prize or live a happy and common life together or apart from each other. They don't care.

Hisui and Kohaku are very interesting characters because they are so underdeveloped and there is so much unknown shit when compared to Arcueid or Akiha but they suffer from what I so unoriginally call "the man I love"-syndrome, they fucking want the guy!

P.S: I think everything has been said and done before this post, but fuck it. It took me too much time to type this shit and to not post it is no longer an option.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 17th, 2008, 9:12 am

abscess wrote:
weiterversuch wrote:Moreover I think they didn't ever attended a school since:

I disagree with you. I don't know if is said when they were brought into the household, but they could have been attending an elementary school during their childhood and during Shiki's stay in the mansion and finish it. As far as I know, in Japan elementary school is 6 years, while junior high is 3 and their higschool is 3, if I'm mistaken PLEASE correct me. If my data is correct, they could have finished their elementary studies with not much of a problem. And, as I said earlier, they could have been tutored for the junior high in the mansion. Having two ignorant girls taking care of the mansion wouldn't be very well seen in the public eye.

weiterversuch wrote:Hisui said she has never been out of the mansion.
Kohaku had only done so with Akiha in the vacations and that only after she turned into a doll.

I don't remember that Hisui said she has NEVER left the mansion and Kohaku does so very little and only with Akiha. I think that Hisui doesn't leave the mansion because of what she decided after knowing how her sister was raped continuously. If I remember correctly that was about four years before Tsukihime. I agree that Kohaku may not go out that often, but she can go out if she wants, at least she goes out for grocery shopping and such.

weiterversuch wrote:Miraploy you could say they were legally kidnapped by a family with both economical and supernatural power. How do you expect that a little child can stand against such a thing?

There are no legal kidnappings in Japan, my friend. Kidnapping is illegal. Leaving semantics aside, you are very right, if they wanted to get the fuck out of there but the Tohnos, branch families and all, wouldn't let them, then they can't do much. Cops and all, they can all be bought or exterminated if need be. But, as I already said in this post and in previous posts, they are there because they want to....



I will just say:
It could be possible that Hisui attended a school before knowing that Kohaku was being raped.
but it is impossible when:
She knows about it since she becomes germophobic (in such a state is very hard to be in crowds and closed places with a lot of people).
I must say If she did attend a school it must have been after Shiki left the mansion.

but Kohaku never did.
(Since it would be very stupid if Makihisa left her go out of the house after he had raped her and he would take risk of inverting when she isn't near.)
she must have been taught inside the mansion like Akiha.
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 9:42 am

zweiterversuch wrote:Kohaku doesn't have a driver's license.
Akiha has a Driver. I am pretty sure of that since I have seen Kohaku in the mansion after Akiha left for School.


You are right. I re-checked it, and Kohaku does not have a driver's license... My mistake.


zweiterversuch wrote:She knows about it since she becomes germophobic (in such a state is very hard to be in crowds and closed places with a lot of people).

Actually, she is aphephobic, that she is afraid of being touched, especially by the opposite sex. In the game it is translated as germophobic because they are referred to be one and the same in Japan, but technically, they are not the same. Apparently the girls over there do not think "guys = germs" is such a farfetching idea......


abscess wrote:
chasmirror wrote:Beside, had Akiha had complete control over the family, she wouldn't have kept that middle-aged chubby principal of Shiki's school as her fiance.

I think she doesn't keep that chubby fella as his fiance. From what I remember that was actually just a joke from KT.


That's what I thought first, until I read this.

Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period wrote:Kugamine Tonami [Name]

From a branch of Tohno family that is also the most wealthy, technically he is Akiha's fiance designated since her childhood.

While his name was briefly mentioned even in the Tsukihime game, he also shows his imposing and manly figure in Kagetsu Tohya.

On the outer appearance he is a kind-looking short and chubby middle-aged man. His true self is an awful man with dark and shady character with a lot of ambition. However a pervert. A tosatsu* mania who loves female body(not, woman). Actually Hisui seems to be more of his taste rather than Akiha.

Although a branch of Tohnos, the family carries little demon blood**. The men in the family tend to be obese but they say the women in Kugamine family are extremely beautiful.


*tosatsu: Filming or taking pictures of other people without their knowledge. Commonly refers to those who films or takes pictures of woman undressing or taking a bath, without consent, of course.

**demon blood: The actual text says "blood of special power", but since they refers to the demon blood in Tohno family......


Although he is practically dumped by Akiha in Kagetsu Tohya, the fact that he has lasted this long even after Akiha became the head of the family speaks volume. If she could, Akiha should've have him whacked, and I would have applauded it.
Last edited by chasmirror on May 17th, 2008, 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 17th, 2008, 5:14 pm

I can't believe you guys don't think it's slavery. :cry: What's the world coming to these days.

I have nothing more to say on this topic, except you should all check the universal declaration of human rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the definition of slavery, and the wiki article on slavery.

PS: Alright, final statement on Batman. Batman... like all American comics, is a bloody joke from an anthropological viewpoint. American comics are done in the tradition of parodies. Gotham is not supposed to be a realistic protrayal of New York, it's a tinted mirror view of it, twisted to fit a specific design. Simply put, it's a parody (on crime, on technology, on family life), not realistic fiction like Tsukihime.

Remember that Batman was invented in the 1930s. Back then butlers and maids still existed. Also note Albert's advanced age, all maids in Albert's tradition generally died (I don't mean die out, I mean are dead), by the 1970s. This was true world wide. The current Albert in modern batman is some kind of transposition of the past into the current, and it works god damn horribly.

Have you ever seen Death Note? Watari is an another albertesque figure who also makes no sense. Why he would spend all his time playing butler to some kid instead of using his amazing diversity of skills gainfully is non-sense. But then Death note is a parody as well.
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Unread postby abscess » May 17th, 2008, 6:28 pm

zweiterversuch wrote:but Kohaku never did.
(Since it would be very stupid if Makihisa left her go out of the house after he had raped her and he would take risk of inverting when she isn't near.)
she must have been taught inside the mansion like Akiha.

Hmmm.... You have a very good point there, man. I never thought of it actually. Well, I think it is said that she was raped almost everyday, but trying to schedule the rapings would be very wrong so I think I'll stop. I really wouldn't know... Perhaps she was home-schooled. I just don't want to have so cool a character that is an ignorant, but it doesn't depend on me...

cashmirror wrote:
zweiterversuch wrote:She knows about it since she becomes germophobic (in such a state is very hard to be in crowds and closed places with a lot of people).


Actually, she is aphephobic, that she is afraid of being touched, especially by the opposite sex. In the game it is translated as germophobic because they are referred to be one and the same in Japan, but technically, they are not the same. Apparently the girls over there do not think "guys = germs" is such a farfetching idea......

I always thought that the germophobia was just to mask it to everyone else that she is scared of being touched by men, even Shiki at first. Hahaha guy-germs! That's so stupid!

Miraploy wrote:What's the world coming to these days.

To a very beautiful, war-torn, starved, uncared of and ignorant world. Hahaha, no I'm just joking there, mate... well not much as a joke since that's true but... Anyway, Why don't you try to tell us what you understand as slavery and why you consider this as slavery? If you want to go on a little bit with this topic, of course.

Miraploy wrote:Batman... like all American comics, is a bloody joke from an anthropological viewpoint

Yes. Batman was created to entertain kids and some adults in their daily lives, but you can't pack ALL american comics in that same category.

Miraploy wrote:not realistic fiction like Tsukihime.

...
Umm... real and fiction are two very different things... I really don't understand what you reffer to "realistic fiction"... Does that category in literature really exists?!
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Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Atriel » May 17th, 2008, 6:45 pm

Miraploy wrote:I can't believe you guys don't think it's slavery. :cry: What's the world coming to these days.


Dude, they said that Kohaku WAS a slave. I'm beginning to believe you are just playing dumb.

Hisui isn't.
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