Tsukihime Story Discussion - MASSIVE SPOILERS

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Unread postby Sparky » April 29th, 2007, 12:13 am

Easiest logical assumption...

Since they each had half the life force, instead of Akiha dying removing what shiki had, it transfered the remainder that Akiha had. Though, did they actually say that shiki was living off of Akiha in hisui's route? There are a lot of little small, but quite impacting, variations between each story.

Such as, in the near side of the moon stories, shiki is weak not because he only has the half life force Akiha gave him in her route, but because SHIKI is stealing half of shiki's life force. Akiha doesn't even come in to play. Once again, the stories interweave, but still are seperated. There are differences in all of the stories that change it all drastically.
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Unread postby fzplus » May 1st, 2007, 2:42 pm

I think the question I'm most curious about, having just completed the game, is how the separate storylines fit together:

What happens to Chaos, Arc and Roa in the far side storylines? What happens to Sacchin in the near side storylines?

My theory is that in the near side storyline, Ciel kills Sacchin - possibly on the first night, when in the Ciel path Shiki is staying at Ciel's place and sees her leaving in the middle of the night. Killing Roa's Dead would be part of her job, and she would certainly have the powers to carry it out.

In the far side storyline, Chaos probably kills Arc? Though Arc would not be have been wounded, Chaos had been taught a special reality marble by Roa focused at dealing with Arc. And Arc in all the storylines has a severe tendency to underestimate her opponents. (Oh, he'll have 30 familiars, tops. Oh, Roa should be no trouble at all. Oh, I'm sure Shiki won't be able to see any lines when he looks at me.) This might also explain Roa's absence from the storyline - since he was in love in Arc, having his nemesis finally killed may have removed his reason for existing, and so weakened his will enough for SHIKI to take over.
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Unread postby Ryuusoul » May 1st, 2007, 2:50 pm

fzplus wrote:I think the question I'm most curious about, having just completed the game, is how the separate storylines fit together:

What happens to Chaos, Arc and Roa in the far side storylines? What happens to Sacchin in the near side storylines?

My theory is that in the near side storyline, Ciel kills Sacchin - possibly on the first night, when in the Ciel path Shiki is staying at Ciel's place and sees her leaving in the middle of the night. Killing Roa's Dead would be part of her job, and she would certainly have the powers to carry it out.

In the far side storyline, Chaos probably kills Arc? Though Arc would not be have been wounded, Chaos had been taught a special reality marble by Roa focused at dealing with Arc. And Arc in all the storylines has a severe tendency to underestimate her opponents. (Oh, he'll have 30 familiars, tops. Oh, Roa should be no trouble at all. Oh, I'm sure Shiki won't be able to see any lines when he looks at me.) This might also explain Roa's absence from the storyline - since he was in love in Arc, having his nemesis finally killed may have removed his reason for existing, and so weakened his will enough for SHIKI to take over.


Arcueid would have destroyed Chaos without breaking a sweat. Arcueid at her full power is that strong.

Sacchin only disappears without you really knowing why in the near side.
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Unread postby miszou » May 1st, 2007, 3:27 pm

yeah arc would have killed Chaos, with her normal powers she could never be defeated like that. And she did reckoned chaos as one of the strongest opponents alive, so she would fight seriously. It's just that she is not used to being that weak, since nothing should be able to kill her like shiki :], so thats why things didn't go that smoothly as she said.

I remember one point where you see arc in the far side of the moon, right? I forgot actually, but I can remember that you see her one time, not sure when.

Some people still believe sacchin was consumed bij Chaos, although I wonder if Chaos would consume dead from his friend :] (assuming that sacchin also gets turned in that storyline).

Well the story lines are kind of hard to explain like that, I don't think they could really coexist, it just doesn't make too much sense.
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Unread postby Sparky » May 1st, 2007, 3:31 pm

It has been discussed that Roa could not take over in the far side of the moon because of kohaku making him insane. That insanity would probably give him an extra line of defense mentally against another psyche.

And as far as Arc vs. Chaos. The only reason she was in trouble the entire time is because she had used a lot of energy to regenerate the damage that shiki did. She was dead, gone. They discussed exactly how much it took somewhere, but it was a significant ammount, then she protected shiki in the hotel, which took even more. So when it came down to the big fight, she was running somewhere less than half power. Full power, well, she still almost wasted Roa in her weakened state, and did blow off half of chaos. He would be no problem.

And if I remember right, Sacchin dies no matter what. In the near side, it was either ciel or arc that did it.

Damn miszou got his in first!
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Unread postby fzplus » May 1st, 2007, 5:45 pm

Well, in the far side storylines, you only see Arc once, and that is from the back before you meet Sacchin. After that, she just totally disappears. Again, the question of what happens to Arc in the far side is unresolved. If she was alive, surely she would have interfered with SHIKI in the later parts of the story. It would be a bit silly of Typemoon to show that she was present (by showing Shiki seeing her from behind) for no reason.

When Arc was talking to Shiki about Chaos, she did only say that she expected Chaos to have under 100 animals. Further, she didn't know that her attacks against Chaos in her battle against him were not harming him at all - you can only defeat Chaos by killing all the beasts at once, or using a weapon that Chaos couldn't regenerate from like Shiki. Also, she was unaware that Roa had access to a lesser version of the eyes of Death perception. Meanwhile, her opponents had full knowledge of her powers. It is at least possible that the two vampires could have double teamed her.

Mostly, otherwise, the storylines would actually fit together, and by this I mean have only differences that are explainable from Shiki's choices. It's just neater, dammit!
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Unread postby 12Characters » May 15th, 2008, 6:16 pm

Honestly, I don't normally go around making accounts on forums to necro-post a year after its "death," as well as possibly rant/creep people out (on purpose anyway.. Probably?), but in all attempted fairness, I found this very thread twice in the early pages of some Google searches for Tsukihime-related things (first page for at least one, I think). In any case, I started thinking a little too much on Tsukihime and I just had to get this stuff out there, or my mind will never rest (If it does at all, yay nerd OCD).

Message wrote:And in Shiki's fight with Reversed Akiha, the thing that made him win was not his Nanaya blood, but his eyes of death perception. If Akiha had known about that, I'm sure she'd have taken more care to not let him get close and she'd have killed him without any effort at all.


If there was an all-out fight, and both hated each other, and had to fight to the death in an open environment like outside the school, then yeah, Akiha would most likely obliterate Shiki (if he truly is not guided by "fate" or anything), but I'm not so sure that on that particular fight, even knowing of his eyes she would've been any more cautious. I say this basing it on how it seemed she wasn't really cautious at all, even with SHIKI, letting both of them hide in the classroom(s) without a second thought, and walking right past. She might've been doing that on purpose to lure them out with her super-sensing/vision thing, but I don't know, since I avoided the dead/bad ends of Tsukihime for the most part. She was still pretty unwary considering the weirdness of Shiki cutting her hair a bunch of times earlier. She should've probably known there was some unusual power within him, I think that alone should've made her more cautious, but her lack of combat experience was reflected here I believe, and Nanaya acknowledges this, if I recall correctly. (The fact Akiha wasn't really in her right mind/possessed could've definitely affected her adversely as well.)

Sparky wrote:The question is quite simple, How come Akiha did not go back to normal at the end of her route?

The reasoning is the complicated part. So, the main reason Akiha was "in the red" was because she was sending out too much energy to shiki keeping him alive right? ( I know SHIKI had something to do with it too, but his part was relatively small in comparison to the weight of shiki's life imo ). They even say that the way to save her is basically to take shiki's life drain off of her to make her go back to normal. So technically wouldn't SHIKI's death restore shiki's missing life, and allow Akiha to go back to normal? So why then did that not happen? It's been a while since I played through the Akiha route, but it might come down to who actually killed SHIKI, and I don't remember if he died from the wounds that shiki gave him, or Akiha finishing him off. Akiha finishing him off might sadly be what does it. But I don't feel like playing all the way through currently to find that out, so I thought I would just ask you guys!

Sadly, if it can be pinpointed to akiha killing SHIKI.... then shiki is a retard in that route for hesitating that one second, because that killed the happy ending! I would have liked to have actually seen a happy ending on one of akiha's routes, as much as I do enjoy Bittersweet ones.

Also, a side question! Who do you guys think is the saddest character in the game?

I personally feel SHIKI is the saddest. well, kinda a tie between SHIKI and kohaku really. But I kinda feel for the antaganist, because no matter what, in every ending, he dies alone =*(, and it really isn't his fault, since if it wasn't for Roa, he wouldn't have been so crazy. ( ok debatable based on whether you think roa affected the ammount of "tohno" blood in him ). But still, the guy was locked up after being killed by his father and replaced. His only want was to get his sister back, but was just too damn crazy to do it in any normal sane fashion, mostly because of what kohaku was doing to him ( hence part of why I rate him over her ).


I disagree on SHIKI having little influence on reversing/inverting Akiha (I'm just going to use "reverse/invert" and the like, since I'm not sure what it is right now), I thought he didn't have much to do with it either at first, but she never reverses/inverts like that on any other route it seems, even after the events of Tsukihime/Kohaku's route. He must've done something rather drastic I think, maybe involving blood or something... Anyway, I don't enjoy trying to think about all the "life-sharing/stealing" stuff, as it can get rather complicated imo, but I kinda doubt reversed/inverted Akiha "Plundered" SHIKI, as there is no mention at all, anywhere, of Akiha having Roa in her body even after it all takes place. All I can say without spoilers of something is that Shiki probably would've needed that life SHIKI had stolen, it's in Kagetsu Tohya. Then again, if Shiki dies if you choose to "Keep the promise" then.. I just don't know, dammit.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels for both SHIKI and Roa, SHIKI more so (for now, I don't really see that changing though), I couldn't even imagine being in that guy's shoes, wow... Life would definitely suck hard. It's funny (not really), how nobody is truly to blame for all of anyone else's problems, except possibly the roots of course. The True Ancestors are to blame for Arcueid sucking Roa's blood not knowing the consequences (or something to that effect, I think), Roa then started "invading" people/Ciel/SHIKI/Shiki out of confusion/desperation (or something like that), Kohaku for inverting SHIKI (poor guy), Makihisa for messing Kohaku up, his ancestors are to blame just as the True Ancestors are to blame for setting in motion something devastating. If Makihisa's ancestors actually meant for the non-human offspring to be born that is, which I think they probably did for power or something, since they didn't seem too concerned about stopping it, if at all. Could be wrong of course..

Still, none of the characters except Shiki ever really seem to sympathize with Roa or SHIKI at all, although more Roa over SHIKI if I recall, and one could say it was more like coming to understand why he was the way he was, I suppose. SHIKI lost everything he ever had, including his mind. Akiha never even tries to stop him with anything but force (that we saw), not that words or hugs would've worked (probably), just saying it's like it never crossed anyone's mind, but it's possible that it might have. In the manga, SHIKI is even more sad of a character as he demonstrates care for his sister and his camaraderie with Shiki.

Also, Shiki's no retard, in fact, Shiki was awesome in Akiha's route, mostly because he was so "real" to me, that's just how I felt though. Yeah, his hesitation wasn't his highest point, but c'mon, he even beats himself up for hesitating to kill Akiha's real brother, also taking into account that SHIKI might have held the answers to saving Akiha, even if he didn't reveal them, the possibility was still high, as how he reversed/inverted her is still pretty much a mystery as far as I'm concerned. There might've been more, but I forget. Either way, I think we can all forgive him for this... He was only human.

I also see lots of people claiming Akiha has no "good ending" (the majority so far), but that's probably because her end is like Kohaku's, their True Ending is happy. I don't see what's so depressing about Akiha's True Ending at all, she clearly states she knows Shiki is alive at the very end, I doubt she's lying to herself, and the fact there's no body is more evidence in favor of Shiki being alive imo. I mean, what? It's not very logical to think something/someone like Nero came by and consumed his dead body at the start of Akiha's True Ending or something, or that Shiki was really a non-human, and he dissolved when he died ect ect, over the possibility of Shiki being alive somewhere, somehow. That said, her True Ending is my favorite, currently, Kohaku's second, but I'm not sure I like Roa being inside Akiha there, paired with the fact Shiki still has to rely on someone to keep his body functioning, I believe (if the life Akiha was sharing kept him functioning, then Kohaku this time, I think, like I said, not sure on the whole "life-sharing" stuff), and of course, the fact Akiha "lost" makes all the other ends fail in my eyes :evil: . Kohaku's True Ending needed some more implied harem for the Tohno household (Akiha, Shiki, Kohaku, and Hisui, definetly wouldn't be fair to exclude one of the twins, imo), if Akiha wasn't really implying such things at the end of Kohaku's True Ending that is, otherwise, needs more implied harem if she was :cry: . Also, Ciel's a cheater dammit, 2 happy endings?!

Supplemental.. Thing..?: Upon thinking about it more, I give up, if reversed/inverted Akiha really did "Plunder" SHIKI during her route (maybe she just didn't have enough time to become like SHIKI or something, even though she just stays like that in her Normal End, possibly forever apparently? Better then the alternative I suppose.. Bleh, her Normal Ending was one of the more crappy endings I've seen, I admit), which would suck, it really doesn't look like it did much if she did, it seems, which still makes me think she most likely didn't.. Still, my statements stand either way.

miszou wrote:less sad person in Tsukihime .... Inui? ^^;;;;

btw, most happy ending?? I think any ending with arc :] ...


After learning more about Inui in KT, I'm not sure I can take his happiness at general face value, although he is probably happy, it would be wrong to make that assumption post-KT. (Then again, that post was probably made before KT was played, but eh...) I'm not so sure there's a least sad, known character in Tsukihime's pre-KT characters (ones we actually see, I mean)... I suppose I could see either Inui or Hisui as that person, but it's hard to tell something like that, I think.

I don't really see how Arc's True Ending was happy, maybe it's somewhat happy for Arc herself, if she really will have pleasant dreams or something (still don't see how that's much of a happy ending overall. She's going to be living in a damn dream, either forever, or she would only be able to dream of Shiki, but never meet him again... That is, if I remember/interpreted her True Ending correctly).. Her Good Ending also seemed kinda fake/tacked on to me as well, just how seemingly random it was for her to suddenly choose or be able to stay with Shiki and all.. Just my opinion..

As long as I'm talking about the endings, I also really didn't like Hisui's True Ending, not only because of Akiha's fate, but also because Kohaku lays that mega guilt-trip on Shiki with her little, "Oh hi, you have severe memory issues from your childhood and even "died" once, but because you couldn't remember 2 identical twins and their eye colors, I killed everyone including myself, have a nice life." That wasn't really needed... I mean, I see the significance to set the stage for her route and all, but it still was pretty lame imo.

Hisui's constant absence during Kohaku's ending was also kind of disturbing.. If she's drugged by Kohaku or asleep or something then I suppose that's forgivable, but some things are kind of odd in her devotion to her sister's schemes... Especially since I'm fairly sure she knows exactly what's going on, aside from Akiha telling her to keep Kohaku away from Shiki during Kohaku's route and all that. I doubt they really hide anything from each other, since they only really had each other growing up/being twins and all.. Hisui also doesn't even seem to care about her when Akiha dies in Hisui's True Ending either... I like her, but not the part about her that takes a backseat to a lot of things she may have been able to prevent (if she didn't try to at some point "behind the scenes" or something).. I do realize she feels guilty and everything, but still.. It doesn't help anything, because even when Kohaku actually goes through with her plans during the route(s), I think it only made everything worse as the end result, overall..

Sparky wrote:Also Akiha in any of the routes that are not hers is pretty sad as well. She sacrificed a huge part of herself out of love that was never returned, and in some instances to the point of willing madness. Willing to go insane for someone is just :shock: .Though I find it odd how she always calls shiki nii'san no matter what =/


I did wonder if Akiha had not kept everything a secret from the start, if Shiki would've fallen for her canonically (instead of Arc), I think the chances are pretty high that he would've, personally. Though it's no use in saying that, since I'm pretty sure Akiha kicks herself for keeping secrets and lying. If only she knew just how much Shiki was involved from the beginning, and how much he would become involved, she could've probably told him (unless she did know how involved he would become, and just wanted to keep him safe or something, not sure really).. Unless this is one of those things where there's only one type of girl that's always "destined" for the guy, in most cases though, it does usually seem to be the "air-headed" girl in most anime/manga-related things, I believe (unfortunately)... Plus, the name of the game/visual novel is "Tsukihime," after all (Moon Princess, if I'm correct), paired with how the stories in the anime/manga appear to be mostly geared towards Arc as well, it seems :\ (possibly the Melty Blood game(s) as well from what I hear)..

Also, I don't think people can really be "willing" to go insane or mad, lol... If you're referring to Kohaku's route, again, she was also being "possessed," I believe... She calls him "Nii-san" no matter what, because she's trying to keep up the facade (early on)/she got used to it/poor SHIKIx100/he really is her Nii-san, just not blood-related..

Don't really think this is a spoiler for KT, just something I noticed/found funny/interesting, but just incase:
I kind of lol'd at how Akiha and Souka are so similar to Shiki and Arihiko in a lot of ways. As well as Shiki is to Arcueid, as Akiha is to Hanepin.. Damn, why are Shiki and Akiha so made for each other? Sheesh. Only bad thing is if they had a child it would probably be trying to kill itself or something.. Unless the Tohno blood was diluted enough maybe, but that's probably been discussed somewhere..


Hyperbeast wrote:Well as for the part I yelled at the screen at, that would be where Akiha "killed" Kohaku in the school, and regardless of the things Kohaku had done, I really didn't want her to die.
I ended up feeling the most sympathetic to Kohaku of all the characters so far *still haven't done Ciel yet* because of how she is. Her being like a doll and not being happy just made me wish more and more that she would have a happy ending to make up for everything, so when that part came around... I was upset, to say the least.

Well.. Thank god the real ending was adequately happy, although a little strange. I don't think it'd be that easy to make up with someone who tried to kill you >.>


Really late quote (yay, more text), honestly, I gotta join the bandwagon for feeling sorry for Kohaku (though after seeing in detail some of what the church does to Ciel in detail from the manga, I think she may have had it worse, pretty nasty), if only because she doesn't seem to even know what she wants from her future, if she ever even thinks she'll have one.. Her crappy past is another reason, obviously. However, she forgave Akiha because Akiha was "possessed", and she didn't actually want to kill Kohaku, I believe (or anyone for that matter imo), Kohaku even says that Akiha held back or something. The real question is how can Akiha forgive Kohaku for making her real brother insane, and pitting Shiki and Akiha in a fight to the death? (This is interesting though, as she must've had great confidence Shiki would win since she doesn't really want him to die, I'm pretty sure.. Except the weird part of her speech during Hisui's Good Ending I don't know what she would've tried, if anything, had Hisui not stepped in when Kohaku claimed she hated Shiki..) It's true she claims to not be holding any real malice towards anyone, and she claims she doesn't fully know why she does this I think, but it's still pretty hard to swallow when it's all said and done imo (no pun from Hisui's Good Ending intended).

Finally, I might seem to be biased towards Shiki. (I try not be biased towards much of anything, but I suppose I might be driven on an unconscious level or otherwise, to kind of balance what I see as the majority views with a different perspective, so maybe I am, in a way.) A lot of people seem to not care about his hardships and stuff, due to being a harem master, and being surrounded/loved by all those girls ect, losing it/being possessed and whatnot, and/or trying to kill him/make him insane or not. For me though, I really feel for the guy because he seems like a pretty wise and deep guy, and despite his numerous and possibly deadly problems, he maintains a very positive outlook on life, and possibly lives in general, even having eyes that make the life and death of perhaps even the earth itself and most things in it seem so pathetically simple, it's frustrating to him. The fact that he's surrounded/loved by all of those girls is all fine and good, but I'm not entirely sure it's worth it, in exchange for all his bodily problems, and the fact he probably wont even be able to grow old with any of them :cry: (unless they have some kind of power(s)/magic that could keep him alive, but still the same person, it didn't really sound like that in the "Epilogue" though). I don't really see how anyone could blame the guy if he eventually did sink into despair with that crap alone :\... KT scenarios and general KT weirdness aside.

Anyway, sorry about all of the weird punctuations (though most of those problems are probably from the damn comma splices, or whatever)/parentheses/obsessive-compulsive editing/grammar/spelling/capitalization/spacing/use of slashes (I usually mean and/or by default, when I use them, I think)/various inconsistencies/various consistencies that are annoying, and all of the other possible junk/screw-ups that I forgot to mention, and/or missed, and/or just left out from trying to stop myself from editing my posts more (all of this applies to all of my posts, by the way).

I wish I could say all the editing and stuff makes all of my posts at least near-flawless in correctness (hope I used "correctness" correctly, oh the irony), that I'm actually able to get most of my damn thoughts/afterthoughts conveyed properly (without screwing up what I mean/want to express with the wrong wording, among other things I'm sure, which happens to me a lot), if I'm even able to convey most of my thoughts at all, and that this OCD crap isn't ingrained in me by now, heh.. I'm hardly ever completely sure of anything, as you can see, but very few things are 100% certain in life, compared to those that aren't, I believe, including the views and opinions expressed in my posts, which may or may not change over time (though they probably wont).. However, I felt that I had to add different views to/correct some things said in this topic, rather then just let them die without so much as a single disagreement (I'm pretty sure there were none for most, if not all of them, I can't really remember now though). Things might've also gotten/remained messed up in all of the editing and whatnot too.. Whatever though, I'll try to resist as much as possible from adding/altering/looking at anything more in this forum after I leave this thread, which is in about a couple pages.. Oh, and I'm not really editing my posts that many times (again, all of this applies to all of my posts), just more OCD weirdness.. Sigh..

Edit: Alright well, Into the abyss this goes I guess.. I'm out.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 15th, 2008, 8:35 pm

Fun read, I largely agree. Like she says herself, Akiha's definitely the one wih the most claim to Shiki, which makes her getting dumped on in most of the routes all the more sad. :wink:
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Unread postby 12Characters » May 15th, 2008, 8:58 pm

(Deleted, not sure how to delete whole posts in this forum, if you can... So feel free to do so, whoever can and will...)
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 16th, 2008, 2:27 am

One thing that really bugs me and is rather disturbing for immersion is the whole maids issue.

How is it that the Tohnos had western teenage maids kept in child-sex-slavery?

It's easy to accept vampires and magic, but it's much harder to accept a societal issue of that sort without changing your whole conception of what society is actually like. Where would Hisui and Kohaku get their training from? Certainly no bulter school would accept teenagers, much less pre-teens.

I recognize that this is probably a suspend your disbelief issue, but it would be nice if someone can make up some excuse, or even some weird story.
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 16th, 2008, 5:29 am

Miraploy wrote:One thing that really bugs me and is rather disturbing for immersion is the whole maids issue.

How is it that the Tohnos had western teenage maids kept in child-sex-slavery?

It's easy to accept vampires and magic, but it's much harder to accept a societal issue of that sort without changing your whole conception of what society is actually like. Where would Hisui and Kohaku get their training from? Certainly no bulter school would accept teenagers, much less pre-teens.

I recognize that this is probably a suspend your disbelief issue, but it would be nice if someone can make up some excuse, or even some weird story.


Well, if Tohnos can wipe out an entire Nanaya clan because the head of the family didn't like them(or afraid of them, to be exact), pulling off a child-slavery probably wouldn't be so far off the radar.

Anyway, according to the Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period published by Type-Moon, on page 187:
Tsukihime Dokuhon wrote:Fujou

As the name says, a pristess family*("Fujou" = pristess family). They are a family that passes down a special ability to children just like Nanaya, yet the method is not by the bloodline but by education of techniques and knowledges.

A woman who succeeds the Fujou name becomes blind. Instead of seeing the present world, she becomes able to see the other side, or something like that? Hisui and Kohaku's family existed as a branch of this family. Unlike Fujou Family, Hisui and Kohaku's family passed down the ability via their bloodline.

The family was ruined because the sisters' mother broke the taboo, and Hisui and Kohaku were entrusted to Tohno Makihisa.

Not related to the Tsukihime itself, but the image of the mother of the sisters is something like this*(which would accompany her rough sketch, but since I don't have the space to upload it...)


In other words, Makihisa was supposed to be their caretaker, but, well, like many foster-fathers out there......

They are being paid for their services, though. In Kagetsu Tohya Kohaku(or was it Hisui?) says they have something like a trust fund coming their way.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 16th, 2008, 8:56 pm

Well, if Tohnos can wipe out an entire Nanaya clan because the head of the family didn't like them(or afraid of them, to be exact), pulling off a child-slavery probably wouldn't be so far off the radar.


Yes that would make sense, but they don't seem to be terribly forced though.

I just don't get why they would stay around as maids. They can't be paying that much, can they? They can probably make a heck lot more money as models or some such if they're really as beautiful as described. :wink:

PS: So they're actually Japanese? Then what's with the red hair and blue eyes. :shock:
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Unread postby abscess » May 16th, 2008, 9:16 pm

Miraploy wrote:
Well, if Tohnos can wipe out an entire Nanaya clan because the head of the family didn't like them(or afraid of them, to be exact), pulling off a child-slavery probably wouldn't be so far off the radar.


Yes that would make sense, but they don't seem to be terribly forced though.

I just don't get why they would stay around as maids. They can't be paying that much, can they? They can probably make a heck lot more money as models or some such if they're really as beautiful as described. :wink:

PS: So they're actually Japanese? Then what's with the red hair and blue eyes. :shock:


Yeah. In fact I've wondered that myself too. The only "logical" reasons I find is that:
1.- Shiki is there, and for some reason this guy exudes magical pheromones that makes almost all weird girls want to fu.. I mean, "make sweet and tender love" to 'im.
2.- The don't really have elsewhere to go so if they get out of the mansion, they would risk ending as homeless or something. Although logical at first sight, if I remembee correctly, it is hintd in KG that if they ever decide to leave they would get paid a big sum so they should't end up stranded in the streets. That makes this apparently logical answer die almost immediatly...

Take into account that this has an anime/manga-style character design so they could very well be japanese alright. Another example of this is Sion, who IS egyptian and has purple hair :?

Somewhere above is said that they belonged to the Fujoo family branch, I REALLY have no idea if that's the name of the family or only a title but if it is a family name it has a japanese-y kinda sound to me, so it could imply that they are japanese. Also, only Hisui has blue eyes, Kohaku has yellow-ish eyes, that's the reason of the names they have: Hisui=Jade (altough the stone itself tends to appear more in a green colored state, there are also blue colored jades) Kohaku=Amber. If you translate the names they lose their flavor so, to me at least, I'm happy they left them like that.
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Unread postby Mazyrian » May 16th, 2008, 9:22 pm

As said, I think KT says that they are indeed payed a lot, and maybe they like to work there (in the end, Kohaku seems to like Akiha)
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 16th, 2008, 9:51 pm

The problem isn't that they're maids for Akiha, the problem is that they're maids at all. They've been servants since they were small kids, they really should be in highschool. I don't care how much Akiha and Shiki likes them, they're still being abused.

I realize that this is a harem hentai fantasy, but the humanist in me still ahbors the depiction of the maids. Overall the whole thing is very shudderworthy.
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Unread postby abscess » May 16th, 2008, 10:09 pm

Miraploy wrote:The problem isn't that they're maids for Akiha, the problem is that they're maids at all. They've been servants since they were small kids, they really should be in highschool. I don't care how much Akiha and Shiki likes them, they're still being abused.

I realize that this is a harem hentai fantasy, but the humanist in me still ahbors the depiction of the maids. Overall the whole thing is very shudderworthy.


I don't think they are being abused. They have the choice to leave whenever they want. I don't know, but maybe the have the choice to do what they want has long as they do their chores. Kohaku is known for growing potentially dangerous plants and drugs them now and then. If she wanted to go to school she could. The case with Hisui is a bit weird for me, she seems to not like to go out so going to school is something that she wouldn't want to do. It is never said if they know nothing about normal school stuff, like arithmetic, history and such, but nothing tells us that they are ignorant. It could be the case that they were tutored about those subject IN the mansion.

Do I find it a good thing that they are bottled inside of the mansion ALL day? fuck no! If it was for me, I would force them to go outside and know the real world. Living in a bubble is never a good thing BUT it's not up to me or you or anyone else here what to make of them but the writer. You gave me a slight idea for my fic, thanks. Now have to think on how not to turn it into a frakking pile of horseshit...
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Atriel » May 16th, 2008, 10:47 pm

The way Tohno Makihisa is portrayed in the story, makes me think that they would recibe education. And as said, they get quite some dough for being maids, even if not specified. I don't know you, but for me, having loads of money AND brains makes school useless.

Note: Haven't readd ALL of the topic, but the last posts :P
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 16th, 2008, 11:04 pm

They're not tutored. We see them over the course of 13 days in Tsukihime, they get no education of any kind. There's nothing to indicate that they were ever trained for anything outside of being servants. It would also be a little weird on Akiha's part if Makihisa hired a tutor for them and Akiha kicked the tutors out, anyway, I can't imagine that they were tutored.

Still, that's not the primary problem. Child slavery... yuk! :cry: That Shiki and Akiha doesn't immediately try to change their situation once they are in power to do so takes a lot away from my respect for them.
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Unread postby 12Characters » May 17th, 2008, 12:43 am

I never really thought too much on all this maid stuff, but it's still very possible they were homeschooled/tutored or something at some point, maybe not a full high school education or anything, but they had to have been educated to a point, maybe only the bare minimum, like Japanese, and whatever else comes with being a servant/possible confidant of the high-class in that place, but aside from Makihisa's "needs," Kohaku, along with Hisui were probably treated pretty well (that doesn't mean Kohaku should've enjoyed life at the mansion at all, just saying aside from Makihisa it's not like she got abused by anyone else.. Probably..). I don't really have anything concrete to base that on at the moment, except the feeling I got, and how they seemed to be rather neutral towards everyone else at the mansion who weren't mentioned (could mean different things, I realize). Kohaku does mention how she easily manipulated people, so she probably got what she wanted, and Hisui was generally happy till around the time Shiki leaves ect.

Benefit of the doubt? They've got good-paying, lifelong jobs they enjoy, who needs a college diploma? Unless they wanted one that is, but in none of the endings or routes do either of them ever mention the desire to go to school with Shiki, or anyone else for that matter (that I recall). Which is what I might have expected, since most harems at some point take that kind of turn (basically the characters of relative age get in on the school-life stuff, if anyone knows what I mean). I would've kinda liked to have seen what it would've been like if the maids did go to school with Shiki and Akiha though, at least for a certain time. Woulda gladly given up a certain maids-related, super-weird Ten Nights of Dream to see that instead.

Anyway, it really is up to the writer. There's a whole lot of things to flesh out and stuff, so some details might have been overlooked/left out and need to be left up to interpretation and/or logic. I kinda doubt Akiha or Shiki would want to force them to do something like stop being servants and leave the safety of the mansion for good, especially with all of the dark secrets they know.. The best thing for them both is to remain by Akiha and Shiki I believe (if Kohaku stops her evil schemes, then I'd say it's probably for the best that all of them remain together). Although Akiha might've tried to do something in the past for all we know, and Shiki didn't really have much of a say, I think. Hisui didn't obey when he tells her to stop using "-sama" and let him do things for himself ect, so they were probably too far gone into being servants during the time of Tsukihime (or at least Hisui was). In the future, after all of the events of Tsukihime have unfolded, who knows.. I think there was progress out of their servant mindsets in their respective endings and such (as well as general mental well-being), or at least Hisui showed progress out of the servant mindset, but she was a lot more strict on herself as a maid then Kohaku, I believe.
Last edited by 12Characters on May 20th, 2008, 10:14 pm, edited 110 times in total.
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Unread postby abscess » May 17th, 2008, 2:42 am

I may sound a little corny or whatever, but I think that school life, as crappy or enjoyable as it may be, is an important part of the development a person living in this kind of society should experience. Putting that aside and going back to the current matter, we know that Hisui and Kohaku don't go to school, and most probably have never done so. The events portrayed in-game don't show them going to any kind of school or doing anything outside from working in the mansion (a bit of an exception would be Kohaku, who enjoys druggin' people now and then, but still...) but we are NEVER told if they were tutored with "school stuff".

I think we are told that both of them were tutored at least on how to be maids and all that shit, and that Kohaku did recieve classes on medicine so she could take care of Makihisa and ended up being the house medic. I would suggest that when they were growing up they could have been taught common school subjects may be up until junior high, perhaps they were tutored even up to high school level of knowledge. If you are being taught via tutors, it doesn't tie you down to your common school calendar "5 days a week, 2 free days, vacaiton. repeat schedule ad infinitum until you die" and could have been learning all that shit ALL the time. Fuck! They could even be smarter than Akiha or Shiki for all we know!

But being pragmatic, putting myself in our "all loved" Tohno Makihisa's shoes, I ask myself "would it be useful to spend time and money on these synchro-chicks' 'learnings'?" I'd say no, it wouldn't help out too much since they were broguht here to be maids... But then again, we can re-think all the situation and say that these girls were entrusted to the Tohno family (as said above, if I remember correctly, by cashmirror, feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken), a VERY important family, not only in the biz-industry, but also on the Demon Hunter Group (or whatever it's name is) and having a pair of dumb, ignorant maids does not say something good about you. I'd say that at LEAST they went through elementary school and at best through junior high and high school. BUT, then... yet AGAIN... this is only us theorizing stuff (something that I seem to enjoy somehow).

I could deepen a little bit more on it, but I can't say squat 'bout KT... Why can't we just use spoiler tags when talking about other games? like KT or melty.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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