Tsukihime Story Discussion - MASSIVE SPOILERS

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Unread postby chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 7:10 pm

Miraploy wrote:I can't believe you guys don't think it's slavery. :cry: What's the world coming to these days.

I have nothing more to say on this topic, except you should all check the universal declaration of human rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the definition of slavery, and the wiki article on slavery.

PS: Alright, final statement on Batman. Batman... like all American comics, is a bloody joke from an anthropological viewpoint. American comics are done in the tradition of parodies. Gotham is not supposed to be a realistic protrayal of New York, it's a tinted mirror view of it, twisted to fit a specific design. Simply put, it's a parody (on crime, on technology, on family life), not realistic fiction like Tsukihime.

Remember that Batman was invented in the 1930s. Back then butlers and maids still existed. Also note Albert's advanced age, all maids in Albert's tradition generally died (I don't mean die out, I mean are dead), by the 1970s. This was true world wide. The current Albert in modern batman is some kind of transposition of the past into the current, and it works god damn horribly.

Have you ever seen Death Note? Watari is an another albertesque figure who also makes no sense. Why he would spend all his time playing butler to some kid instead of using his amazing diversity of skills gainfully is non-sense. But then Death note is a parody as well.


Boy, you really won't listen to what people are saying.

We are NOT saying slavery is okay. We are saying, despite what you might think, the sisters are NOT slaves right now. They get paid, and they are free to leave if they wish.

Yes, what Makihisa did to the girls, especially to Kohaku, is what you must see as slavery. But we all agree he is an unbelievable asshole who took advantage of his power and prestige. We are not saying that is okay. We are stating that Makihisa himself made himself look like a benevolent kind man who took in orphans. Those who know what was going on turned their eyes away, and those who didn't probably praised him for what he appeared to be doing. So it went on, until Akiha found out.

You can't blame Shiki for this, because he was basically in the same fate. When SHIKI turned and killed Shiki, Shiki was manipulated into believing that he was the real son of Tohnos, then sent away before he could learn the truth. He spent his life as a normal(well, as normal as he could be) boy in Arima household. By the time he returned, the damage was done.

Akiha is the same. When she was too young to understand the implication, she was put to the place of the heir and spent most of her life being vigorously educated for her future role. She only realized what was happening to Kohaku when she walked in on the girl and her father together, and she put a stop to it right away. By then, she really couldn't do anything else than make Kohaku her personal servant.

You don't seem to appreciate how powerful Makihisa was. He wiped out an entire clan by force just because he was afraid of what one person(be it that he is the head of the family) in that family could do to kill him. He literally ruled the Misaki city. There is no FBI in Japan. If anyone made a call to authority to help the girl, he could easily squash the investigation and "take care of" the informant(which we cannot assume there hadn't been none. I am fairly certain someone would have tried to help the girls, with no avail). Akiha, being only a child herself, could not do anything else than keep Kohaku at her side.

By the time when Makihisa died, Akiha became the head of the family, but still with no absolute authority. With her still being in high school, it is most likely that many of the house affairs were run by other major members of the family. Had she freed the sisters then, the others in the family would have tried to silence them in order to keep the family secret. On top of that, the sisters, especially Hisui, knew nothing much about the outside world. The Tohno mansion was all they knew. It would have been cruel to dump them outside at this point. That would have been equivalent of rescuing a fish from drowning in a lake. Akiha could support them financially, but the sisters would still deal with the outside world that they had never dealt with before.

As for the maids and butlers situation, you must see it more like a fantasy setting. Yes, there are no more master-servant relationship in US. But it is not so uncommon to see it still being displayed in imaginary settings. Albert serves Bruce Wayne not because he thinks he is a slave to him. He does because he feels loyal to Wayne family(not to mention he must have practically raised Bruce himself), and has a pride in his job. The same goes for Watari. He is not being forced in that role. You might think his abilities could do better some place else, but Watari prefers to use his skills to help "the kid".

Have you ever watched the show "Nanny" with Fran Drescher? One of the character was Niles, a butler who worked for Maxwell, Fran's employer. One episodes show their childhood when Niles, whose father worked for Maxwell's father, boasted that he wouldn't follow his father's footsteps and become a barrister himself. Alas, the fate was not to be. While the circumstance is not clear, Niles ended up working for Maxwell as his butler, just like his father. But he wasn't a slave. It was a job. Sometimes he threatened to quit for a raise, and he once did quit, only to return later because he wasn't happy with his new job. Would you call him a slave?

The sisters' circumstance resembles what used to happen in the pre-WWII Japan. A child from a poor family, or no family at all, is taken in by the rich family, and works for them at young age. In some way, much like the apprenticeship situation in the medieval Europe. But they are paid for their work, and they may leave if they feel they are appreciated better elsewhere. They weren't being slaves. They were just really, really young. This kind of practice is no longer happening in Japan, but such a circumstance is still being used frequently as a setting in mangas, games, and anime.

Again, I emphesize, this is NOT what happens normally in Japan. Such a setting is just "only if." Nasu is basically saying "had there been such a powerful family like Tohno, and if they still operated in Japan in the more traditional sense, sisters like Kohaku and Hisui might end up working for them." Yes, Kohaku's ordeal is unforgivable by any standard, and even in traditional Japan, this would not have been received kindly. That is why Makihisa hid his true intention from others. Some might have questioned what was going on, but none would be so quick to call a whistle on something they cannot prove against someone so powerful.

So Kohaku suffered, under the disguise of being a maid, in order to protect her younger sister. Hisui stayed, in order to stay with her older sister. They had no one to help them, and the enemy too powerful, until Akiha discovered and stepped in. My guess is that she also kept a close eye on Hisui, since Makihisa could go after the younger sister once he lost his access to the older one. After all, Hisui was kept safe because of Kohaku. Since Hisui had not been touched yet(until Shiki, damn womanizer!), I can only assume that Akiha did it well.

But like I said, this was the best Akiha could do. Being the young heir who just landed her throne, she does not have a voice strong enough to prevent the other family members from getting at them. At this point, the sisters know just too much. Being maids is all they know at this point, and they are paid quite well. I don't know if they are just happy working there, or they just feel safer in the mansion, but they are staying at their own will.
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Unread postby abscess » May 17th, 2008, 7:37 pm

:o
Longer post is longer. I think in that post above is explained elloqently enough the sisters' current situation. There still is their education issue that we can still theorize on, but we must always remember that is a friggin' GAME!!! Weird shit happens and we can't stretch it too much or it will break on our faces!
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby 12Characters » May 17th, 2008, 9:45 pm

abscess wrote:I'm with you in this one. I don't remember seeing any scene where Kohaku offers to drive the car. The interesting thing is that the driver is never shown nor mentioned in any conversation. I am sure that the driver is the most unknown character in the nasuverse!


The ambiguous driver is mentioned in Akiha's True Ending (hope I used "ambiguous" correctly)... But yeah... Not much else to be added to this particular subject on the maids, I think..

Definitely wasn't aiming for the thread to turn into a human rights/education/Batman thing when I revived this back on the 7th page, with most likely the biggest post in the thread, and one of the most monster first posts ever.. So many hours wasted for like, maybe one person to have read the whole thing, if that (sorry if I'm wrong, but eh, that's what it looks/feels like).. Oh well..
Last edited by 12Characters on May 20th, 2008, 10:08 pm, edited 110 times in total.
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Unread postby Undream » May 18th, 2008, 4:53 am

wow...cant believe i read chasmirror's entire post..
but yeah, what he/she/it said.
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby miauww » November 10th, 2008, 4:40 am

wuahhh.... :? looks like this topic only has been Hisui and Kohaku's side after reading all post here ^^ tee-hee
okay on the topic.. btw i wanna ask something since i'm not really sure about this, but is it true that Ciel's seven (the oversizely-large-bayonezooka thing) is her robe?
well i realized it after these points,first looks like whenever she bring seven out she not using her robe instead using..(hmm i dunno what to call it..underwear? ^^;a) with the scripture showing and second is in melty blood..ups i guess i'll be using spoiler tag then :p
well sometimes if u using/facing Ciel u will see her in her school uniform with nanako-chan flying beside her and soon after that became her robe...and her arc it seems she was converting the robe too..


well i guess if its true then i realize how great is The Church for inventing this well imagine if u can transform u'r jacket into a car and u wont troubled finding parking area, turn u'r computer into u'r pants or something
..well imagine :lol:
also a dress, a weapon, and a kawaiii familiar altogether is cheating.. (:x i want it too) ..maybe someday i'll join The Church and ask something like 3in1 or 5in1 like that :)

ps:sorry if my english was bad =P
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Unread postby KratosIrving » November 10th, 2008, 5:08 am

I find it more interesting that you necro'ed a 6 month old topic than bad English. :D
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Unread postby Undream » November 10th, 2008, 5:12 am

KratosIrving wrote:I find it more interesting that you necro'ed a 6 month old topic than bad English. :D


Its called grave-digging =p

but to the topic: i dont know, since i only remember seeing the familiar turn into the robes in Melty Blood...
I suppose it is, or at least could be (I dont think they got that out of thin air...or at least i hope so)
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby miauww » November 10th, 2008, 5:16 am

...uahh :shock: sorry..i really mean it.. T_T gomen nasai.. (give a short bow)
i didn't realize the date before because i was swept away when reading this topic :cry:
huaa...i'm sorry for bringing the grave back T_T

ps:anyway....at least its better than making a new topic right? j/k ^_^;
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