A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

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Unread postby abscess » April 17th, 2009, 7:42 am

@Chaos Chaud
I've read some stuff in wikipedia about genetics, but there are still some stuff that I don't get from that theory.
-Why does it have to be two "conditional genes"?
-Why does it have to be recessive?
-It is true that, since Arcueid doesn't have any of those genes, the child would inherit the information from MEoDP only from Shiki, but we don't know if Arcueid can provide something else to the equation. Supposing she provides something to do with the eyes, she probably would give a weak charm effect, or hypnosys like that of Ciel. That's what I think, supposing I do understand the gist of your theory.

Chaos Chaud wrote:About your under some special circunstances a gene can disappear. But ,if this happens, it will never appear again anywhere in the lineage.
That makes me think that, if that was the case, their child wouldn't even have the chance to have the MEoDP gene/s.

Chaos Chaud wrote:We would have an army of world-killing people to deal with. That's why I want it to stay as just a funny thing, because even I, the one proposing it, would just have to accept it as truth. Where's the fun in something like that?

Yes, I think I see the issue. Saying that Shiki's children and grand children (and on and on and on) would have MEoDP is crap. Then MEoDP wouldn't be all that special, still dangerous, but not that special.

Windar wrote:If there was a way for you guys to talk to the creator of the remake I bet you guys could put so much more information into the game.

Hahaha! I kinda doubt that. They most likely would think that we are overthinking stuff and disregard all this.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta eat something and watch Star Wars! :lol: and study afterwards....

P.S: Good luck with your exam, dude.
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Unread postby Chaos Chaud » April 17th, 2009, 3:47 pm

@abcess

I'm in a hurry now. Please, do not mind the poorly typing

-Why does it have to be two "conditional genes"?
-Why does it have to be recessive?


I doesn't need to be exactly this. But this way would explain the low ratio of MEoDP in history. Putting two conditional genes, the MEoDP becomes a lot more rare than with just one. That accords more with the VN information.

-It is true that, since Arcueid doesn't have any of those genes, the child would inherit the information from MEoDP only from Shiki, but we don't know if Arcueid can provide something else to the equation. Supposing she provides something to do with the eyes, she probably would give a weak charm effect, or hypnosys like that of Ciel. That's what I think, supposing I do understand the gist of your theory.


Yes, that's what I meant when I said it's needed to study the behavior of MEoDP genes when presented with non-MEoDP genes (but, I guess its impossible to study it, maybe it would kill genes for the eyes that are not MEoDP ones? :lol: ). From how the possibilty that the MEoDP have overwritten Shiki's Pure Eyes, I guess that when the trigger happens the MEoDP genes would overwrite whatever genes for the eyes the kid had activated, even if it was also a special one.

That makes me think that, if that was the case, their child wouldn't even have the chance to have the MEoDP gene/s.


What, I wanted to say with my statement was that even Shiki wouldn't have MEoDP, because the special conditions for it disappear would make Shiki lost his MEoDP too. And that special circunstances I mentioned are problably as rare as MEoDP, and they generally need a real catastrophe for it for it to disappear from one person and a world catastrophe to disappear from an entire specie (that happened once with a leopard-like animal in Africa).

P.S: Good luck with your exam, dude.


Thanks for it. Fortunately, I problably scored 100 :D :D :D
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re:

Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 4th, 2009, 7:54 pm

sorry...
I just thought that possibly Akasha doesn't believe in genetics.

If something is really to be inherited then it is the bloodlust of the mother and the "hate towards non-human" of the father's bloodline. So their kid would be the most vicious beast in the whole nasuverse.
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby nobaka » May 4th, 2009, 9:13 pm

The Eyes aren't genetic. Their kid would be just be a half-True Ancestor (that is, doesn't HAVE to drink blood to survive).
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 4th, 2009, 10:11 pm

nobaka wrote:The Eyes aren't genetic. Their kid would be just be a half-True Ancestor (that is, doesn't HAVE to drink blood to survive).



but he/she would still have the desire to do so.
He/she doesn't need it but he/she longs for it.

but... come to think of it...
Do the nanaya's genes contain the nanaya's abilities? or do they just contain their hate towards non-humans?

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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 5th, 2009, 12:13 am

Off Topic
The Eyes aren't genetic.


I ask everybody that said that. Why the eyes can't be genetic? And if it's not genetic, why the bloodlust is? And more than that, why the eyes, a power,a condition of a body, isn't genetic while the non-human hate , a condition of a mind, a behavior pattern, is? I'm not questioning that a behavior propensity can be genetically induced, I'm asking why the body condition can't be genetically created? (Which is way more easier genetically speaking)

About the akasha part, in fate heaven's feel true ending, it is mentioned somewhere that souls have genes, so why can't akasha operate genetically? Besides that, if everythings operates under akasha and some things operates under genetics, akasha at least CAN use genetics, can't it?


This part got a little off topic... Still I vote for archiki's possible MEoDP...
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby AvatarofRage » May 5th, 2009, 9:34 am

A few things worth mentioning,

First off, Arc had NO bloodlust whatsoever until she tasted it, and considering it's mentioned the True Ancestors never even thought to tell her not to drink blood, she likely never even felt anything until she drank it.

Second, not really important, as I doubt she would, but relevant nonetheless, Arcueid could use her Marble Phantasm to influence the kids genetics. As I said not likely, especially since, as far as I know, she'd have to do so pretty much immediately after conception.

That aside, I think it's possible that the kid might actually be a Counter Guardian from birth, or at least designated as one.
Considering the true Ancestors were pretty much Earth's Uber-Counter Guardians, created to combat the 'infection' of humanity, and the Nanaya, as Demon Hunters, were pretty close to Counter Guardian's themselves, it seems possibly that either Gaia or Alaya might recruit the kid as a counter-guardian, which could lead to some interesting conflicts if they both tried to summer her at the same time.

She would definitely have Mystic Eyes of some sort, if not Gold Eyes, then at least Pure Eyes.
I've no idea if she would possess Marble Phantasm or not...it's mentioned all True Ancestors have it (Arcuied and Altrouge are just the only ones who can manifest Castle Brunestud) but no idea if a half breed would, or just a Reality Marble derived from it.

TYPE-Moon Wiki says there's one half-breed on record on the True Ancestor page, but has nothing else about him/her...does anyone know anything about this individual?
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby nobaka » May 5th, 2009, 4:37 pm

@ChaosChaud: They're not genetic because the game and KnK state that the eyes are obtained. That's also why Nanaya doesn't have the eyes.

AvatarofRage wrote:A few things worth mentioning,

First off, Arc had NO bloodlust whatsoever until she tasted it, and considering it's mentioned the True Ancestors never even thought to tell her not to drink blood, she likely never even felt anything until she drank it.


Which is why I said the kid wouldn't HAVE to drink blood.

AvatarofRage wrote:Second, not really important, as I doubt she would, but relevant nonetheless, Arcueid could use her Marble Phantasm to influence the kids genetics. As I said not likely, especially since, as far as I know, she'd have to do so pretty much immediately after conception.


Useful for determining all sorts of shit, but not Death Perception.

AvatarofRage wrote:That aside, I think it's possible that the kid might actually be a Counter Guardian from birth, or at least designated as one.
Considering the true Ancestors were pretty much Earth's Uber-Counter Guardians, created to combat the 'infection' of humanity, and the Nanaya, as Demon Hunters, were pretty close to Counter Guardian's themselves, it seems possibly that either Gaia or Alaya might recruit the kid as a counter-guardian, which could lead to some interesting conflicts if they both tried to summer her at the same time.


Doesn't one have to make a pact with the world or already be a Heroic Spirit to become a Counter Guardian?

AvatarofRage wrote:She would definitely have Mystic Eyes of some sort, if not Gold Eyes, then at least Pure Eyes.
I've no idea if she would possess Marble Phantasm or not...it's mentioned all True Ancestors have it (Arcuied and Altrouge are just the only ones who can manifest Castle Brunestud) but no idea if a half breed would, or just a Reality Marble derived from it.

TYPE-Moon Wiki says there's one half-breed on record on the True Ancestor page, but has nothing else about him/her...does anyone know anything about this individual?


I think the Gold Eyes are available to any sufficiently powerful vampire. Could be wrong, though.

As far as I know, the half-breed is thought to be Altrouge.
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 5th, 2009, 5:27 pm

AvatarofRage wrote:A few things worth mentioning,

First off, Arc had NO bloodlust whatsoever until she tasted it, and considering it's mentioned the True Ancestors never even thought to tell her not to drink blood, she likely never even felt anything until she drank it.

Second, not really important, as I doubt she would, but relevant nonetheless, Arcueid could use her Marble Phantasm to influence the kids genetics. As I said not likely, especially since, as far as I know, she'd have to do so pretty much immediately after conception.

That aside, I think it's possible that the kid might actually be a Counter Guardian from birth, or at least designated as one.
Considering the true Ancestors were pretty much Earth's Uber-Counter Guardians, created to combat the 'infection' of humanity, and the Nanaya, as Demon Hunters, were pretty close to Counter Guardian's themselves, it seems possibly that either Gaia or Alaya might recruit the kid as a counter-guardian, which could lead to some interesting conflicts if they both tried to summer her at the same time.

She would definitely have Mystic Eyes of some sort, if not Gold Eyes, then at least Pure Eyes.
I've no idea if she would possess Marble Phantasm or not...it's mentioned all True Ancestors have it (Arcuied and Altrouge are just the only ones who can manifest Castle Brunestud) but no idea if a half breed would, or just a Reality Marble derived from it.

TYPE-Moon Wiki says there's one half-breed on record on the True Ancestor page, but has nothing else about him/her...does anyone know anything about this individual?




I suppose the one half-breed you mean is Altrouge since she is half true ancestor and half dead apostle.

but then again...
the thirst is something all vampires are born with. Otherwise they wouldn't be vampires.
Whether the thirst manifest itself or not since birth, or whether it is necessary for a nasu-vampire to consume blood or not that is another topic.

I mean...
A human isn't born to be canrnivorous. IT CAN BE! but it Doesn't mandatory have to! (like you said :
First off, Arc had NO bloodlust whatsoever until she tasted it, and considering it's mentioned the True Ancestors never even thought to tell her not to drink blood, she likely never even felt anything until she drank it
.)
but the capability of eating not yet decomposing corpses prevails in all and every human.

Of course. That there is a capacity doesn't mean there is a necessity. (huh? did I say this before?)
but in case of the true ancestors (and Shion) blood "sucking" has the significate of "union" (maybe "possesion" or "desire to be with", "absortion", "domination" or "control" I don't know...
it is hard to tell what kind of feelings Arc had when she killed her own kin and when she and shion tried to bite Shiki , the one they both are in love with,
)
NOTE:
SHION IS A DEAD APOSTLE = SHE really needs to drink blood to survive (Wel she only had blood lust everytime Warachia appeared (what wasn't very often) but still she needs blood)
ARC IS A TRUE ANCESTOR.= She doesn't

But Shion describes blood sucking as a expression of looking for warmth or company or something like that...
weird isn't it?
anyway...

that is what I think...

btw:
I don't really believe that arcXshiki's dauther/son would be a counter guardian since birth.
The true ancestors weren't guardians (Or counter guardians)
Off Topic
CAUTION!!!!CAUTION!!!!
Guardian =X Counter Guardian
Counter Guardian= Pact with the world to save humanity-
Guardian = Pact with the world to save the world !!
. They answered to the earth cry for help but they never made a contract (not that I know.) They are the kind of guys who help you out when you are moving but whom you can't order around too much since they would get pissed.
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 5th, 2009, 10:06 pm

@nobaka: As I have said somewhere before I haven't read KnK so I can't say anything about it...
But, just because a power is obtained it doesn't mean it can't be within you already. I mean, magic can't be obtained if you don't have magic circuits, Shirou obtained his reality marble 'cause he already had it (Does the "because this was my magic from the start" remember you about something? *smiles* ), you can't pass your muscle strength upon a certain limits through training. Now the simplest example possible you can't even WALK if you weren't born with the undeveloped ability to equilibrate yourself with two legs, right? :lol: Of course there are powers that you really doesn't need to have from the start and occur during your life like turning yourself into a dead apostle. But if the death experience was everything that was needed for "obtaining" the MEoDP a lot more people would have it and thus we would return to the beginning of this discussion about archiki having or not having MEoDP...

Off Topic
lol, I have an offtopic button but I don't have a quote one


About the bloodlust, I think even if archiki have any bloodlust it wouldn't appear until archiki drinks blood for the first time, isn't it? So it probably could live without having it. I mean Arc only drank blood because she hadn't known about it, and now she KNOWS about it, so archiki would be warned... :lol:

. They answered to the earth cry for help but they never made a contract (not that I know.) They are the kind of guys who help you out when you are moving but whom you can't order around too much since they would get pissed.


I lol at that and agree!!
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby nobaka » May 5th, 2009, 11:26 pm

Chaos Chaud wrote:@nobaka: As I have said somewhere before I haven't read KnK so I can't say anything about it...
But, just because a power is obtained it doesn't mean it can't be within you already. I mean, magic can't be obtained if you don't have magic circuits, Shirou obtained his reality marble 'cause he already had it (Does the "because this was my magic from the start" remember you about something? *smiles* ), you can't pass your muscle strength upon a certain limits through training. Now the simplest example possible you can't even WALK if you weren't born with the undeveloped ability to equilibrate yourself with two legs, right? :lol: Of course there are powers that you really doesn't need to have from the start and occur during your life like turning yourself into a dead apostle. But if the death experience was everything that was needed for "obtaining" the MEoDP a lot more people would have it and thus we would return to the beginning of this discussion about archiki having or not having MEoDP...


It's the prolonged exposure to death (near-death state for an extended period of time) followed by recovery. Also, plot.
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 5th, 2009, 11:53 pm

nobaka wrote:It's the prolonged exposure to death (near-death state for an extended period of time) followed by recovery. Also, plot.


Still, if that was the only condition it, the probability of MEoDP appearance would be far higher than the VN probability of MEoDP appearance. Also, plot does not mention that anyone who suffers a prolonged exposure to death can make use of MEoDP, only that shiki's MEoDP activated when he suffered prolonged exposure to death. Two things imply quite different consequences.

...
So, I still vote for archiki's genetically possible MEoDP
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby abscess » May 6th, 2009, 1:13 am

Chaos Chaud wrote:So, I still vote for archiki's genetically possible MEoDP
I'm with'cha thar, my man!
Though, I have to also say that there has to be some other kind of supernatural affinity for that, but other than that, I can't say much without proper information available.
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby AvatarofRage » May 6th, 2009, 6:51 am

Well, plausibility aside and going by the Zeroth Law of Narrative (what the Author wants, happens)

What I think would work best thematically for Archiki would be a death related Reality Marble, that passively manifests itself as a Mystic Eyes, (like how Shirou's Reality Marble passively manifests as Tracing and identification of swords)

It'd need to be different from MEoDP, to keep a level of intrigue in just what she's capable of...although exactly what I'm not sure...

The whole Counter Guardian thing was just something I thought of after noting Arcueid's appearance in the end of Melty Blood, not as Arcueid herself, but as an Agent of the World, wondering if that would be passed on, then realizing Archiki would possibly have a similar link to Alaya, being half-human as opposed to Arc whose not human at all.

As for the half-breed mentioned, the exact line is "There is only one known case of a child being successfully born between a True Ancestor and a human.", and shows up in the Origin section of the True Ancestor page, which in turn references the Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod dictionary entry and Jonnobi

Also, someone mentioned a pic of Archiki showing up in an Art Book. Was it an official one, or just a doujinshi, and do you have links?
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 6th, 2009, 2:40 pm

abscess wrote:
Chaos Chaud wrote:So, I still vote for archiki's genetically possible MEoDP
I'm with'cha thar, my man!
Though, I have to also say that there has to be some other kind of supernatural affinity for that, but other than that, I can't say much without proper information available.


:lol: Maybe it only appears if your name is pronounced "Shiki" somewhere ? XD :lol:
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby Pink » May 10th, 2009, 10:23 pm

Well, even though the Nanaya were powerful, they were no where as near powerful as the true ancestors... But isn't it possible for there to be unexpressed genes in the Nanaya blood? Since Arcueid's blood would be very powerful, it might act as a genetic catalyst that could force the expression of the otherwise un-expressible genes inherent in the Nanaya blood, while closing off the expression of other genes... It'd be like a key that was unlocking certain genes and locking other ones.

But doesn't Shiki also have a piece of Nrvnqsr in him? Might it be possible that having a piece of such a powerful being affect his baby-making? Maybe like, a shape-shifting thief cat child?
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby AvatarofRage » May 12th, 2009, 11:30 am

You know, I completely forgot about that...

For that matter, I suspect Nasu has as well. It never seems to get mentioned anywhere...but just what would the implications if having a fragment of Nero in his body be anyway? Especially since it was from after Nero got 'le stabbed'...
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 12th, 2009, 3:50 pm

well, arc says nothing happens...
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re:

Unread postby Pink » May 13th, 2009, 5:06 am

Tessara wrote:
Chaos Chaud wrote:(and it is problably rare, very rare unless Shiki starts to reproduce as a rabbit)


Given the powers of the Tohno gland, I'd say this is pretty likely. In another 5 generations, 25% of the world's population is going to be part of the Tohno harem/family. . .


Wait... You say this as if this is a bad thing...
Just imagine, 1/8 of the females in the world are going to be crazy-powerful red-heads. Sure, they'll be some complications, but I am sure that the madness would get evened out by human stupidity eventually.


Chaos Chaud wrote:well, arc says nothing happens...


She also said she
was going to kill Shiki
at one point, so I don't think you can take her statements as being truth.
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Re: A child born from Arcueid and Shiki

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 18th, 2009, 4:56 pm

@Pink

But the two situations are totally different...
Killing Shiki or not is something that can change if her opinion about the matter changes...
Nero's pieces affecting him or not is something that won't change even if she wants it to change...
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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