Tsukihime vs FSN

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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 2:08 am

Mkilbride wrote:Uh, to much is wrong with yer post, but I'll basically say this.

Shiki feels pain when and after using his eyes. Infact, his headaches are so grand, they can make him go comatose. Also, as it is alluded to in the story, he will die in just a few short years due to the damage using his ability causes. Archer clearly shows Shirou lives to quite an age. :P


I didn't realize that there were that many mistakes. I admit I am not very familiar with Tsukihime. Please pick apart my post and tell me what is wrong. I will never learn if I don't know my mistakes.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 26th, 2009, 10:20 am

Okay, since you asked...

1. Tsukihime has more variations of characters than F/sn. This fact stands even when the characters "linked" to bot games (like Zelretch) are counted. Even Tsukihime has five heroines. F/sn only got three.

2. Indeed, there is more development for characters in F/sn. BUT. That's only from a certain point of view. If you compare the heroines' development only, true, F/sn is more complex than Tsukihime. For example, Arcueid's character development isn't explained as deeply as Saber's (previous life, how the character endured hardships before they meet the main character, etc, etc). Shiki's is not as deeply elaborated as Shirou's (possible outcome of ideal, what happens when the ideal is abandoned, etc, etc) . Reason? Simple, there is not enough screen time for every character to be elaborated as much as possible.

However, when you count materials from outside the game, you can see that Tsukihime's characters can be even more complex than F/sn's.

3. Yes, the very basic difference between Shiki and Shirou is, Shiki is true to himself. Shirou had lived his life through a fake, borrowed ideal. That's one of the many reasons why people tend to prefer Shiki over Shirou.

4. Fights in Tsukihime can be much more flashy. You'll get what I mean after delving deeper to the game.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 10:38 am

Shourai wrote:Okay, since you asked...

1. Tsukihime has more variations of characters than F/sn. This fact stands even when the characters "linked" to bot games (like Zelretch) are counted. Even Tsukihime has five heroines. F/sn only got three.

2. Indeed, there is more development for characters in F/sn. BUT. That's only from a certain point of view. If you compare the heroines' development only, true, F/sn is more complex than Tsukihime. For example, Arcueid's character development isn't explained as deeply as Saber's (previous life, how the character endured hardships before they meet the main character, etc, etc). Shiki's is not as deeply elaborated as Shirou's (possible outcome of ideal, what happens when the ideal is abandoned, etc, etc) . Reason? Simple, there is not enough screen time for every character to be elaborated as much as possible.

However, when you count materials from outside the game, you can see that Tsukihime's characters can be even more complex than F/sn's.

3. Yes, the very basic difference between Shiki and Shirou is, Shiki is true to himself. Shirou had lived his life through a fake, borrowed ideal. That's one of the many reasons why people tend to prefer Shiki over Shirou.

4. Fights in Tsukihime can be much more flashy. You'll get what I mean after delving deeper to the game.


hmm... I see, I see. Thanks. If you have anything more to say, go for it.

This gives me reason to make time for Tsukihime. Although, I still think I would prefer FSN over Tsukihime, just because I like the characters more and I am more familiar with it.
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Unread postby allanh » February 26th, 2009, 10:57 am

Shourai wrote:Okay, since you asked...


3. Yes, the very basic difference between Shiki and Shirou is, Shiki is true to himself. Shirou had lived his life through a fake, borrowed ideal. That's one of the many reasons why people tend to prefer Shiki over Shirou.

4. Fights in Tsukihime can be much more flashy. You'll get what I mean after delving deeper to the game.


3. I don't agree with this point. In fact, I like Shirou more than Shiki. To me, Shiki has "no ideal" at all. He tries to live his life like a normal person and he has no intention to "save the world". I admire Shirou's beliefs. There is no such thing as a "borrowed ideal". The wish to "save the world" exist in many people hearts (including mine), and it is not something anyone can claim the rights to. I think Shirou deserves to be congratulated and respected that he actually tries his hardest and put his life on the line to implement his ideals which I don't think many of us can achieve.

4. Perhaps it is due to technology or experience reasons, Type Moon's Tsukihime's fighting scenes are, imho, much more word-based and often the screen just shows lines when describing the actions. In contrast, FSN often has pictures (some with animation) to show the actual events. Personally, I find FSN's fighting scenes more engaging.

Despite I disputing these two points, I am not saying that FSN has a better storyline than Tsukihime. I think the two VN are neither superior nor inferior to each other. They are different and both enjoyable in their own ways. After all, I develop a crush on all girls appeared in both games lol (except for Sakura).
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Unread postby Shourai » February 26th, 2009, 11:15 am

It is a borrowed ideal, because it was not originally his. He got it from Kiritsugu. True, the innate character of being a "good guy" to everyone is inside every people's heart. But it's Kiritsugu's specific ideal to become the "Defender of Justice", even if he had to sacrifice everything he had. Shirou admired that ideal. He even said something along the lines of "hey old man, your ideal is so cool; I'll replace you when you are gone in the future". If you think that is not a borrowed ideal, read the game again.

And yes, lack of CG degraded Tsukihime's fighting scene quality to a certain extent.
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Unread postby -Shiki- » February 26th, 2009, 1:59 pm

uhh..shiki might not have an ideal, but he still goes around saving people from vampires..maybe you say he is forced to do so with arc but then, he still got the willl to do it..its not like he goes around, meet a vampire and 'oh..a vampire..SLICE'..he goes for it and he has a STAND..no IDEALS but have a strong STAND..not much different from an ideal though..
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Unread postby sabata2 » February 26th, 2009, 6:54 pm

FSN is more like an anime in terms of it's fighting style. You get to watch a lot of what's going on, and personally I think that that detracts from the actual story moving through the fight.
It ends up going "oooh flashy lights!" and you quickly lose yourself in the fight and the colors.

With Tsukihime, the fights are all text based, but just like a book, they are extremely well written. And as such it takes no effort to imagine what's going on.
And imagining whats happening causes you to innately link the fight with what's going on in the story.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 26th, 2009, 7:02 pm

sabata2 wrote:FSN is more like an anime in terms of it's fighting style. You get to watch a lot of what's going on, and personally I think that that detracts from the actual story moving through the fight.
It ends up going "oooh flashy lights!" and you quickly lose yourself in the fight and the colors.

With Tsukihime, the fights are all text based, but just like a book, they are extremely well written. And as such it takes no effort to imagine what's going on.
And imagining whats happening causes you to innately link the fight with what's going on in the story.


I have an imagination that can take words and turn them into pictures in my head and based on whats said, I imagine what's happening. I like doing that, that's why I read books. That's also why when books get turned into Movies, it usually disappoints me because their vision is so far different from mine. No way to know whose is correct, probably none us.

In Fate Stay Night, while the fights are awesome, it leaves little room for imagination.

Fate / Stay Night is for those with less imagination.
Tsukihime is for those with more imagination.

I'd guess I'd say those two things as definitive.
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Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 10:25 pm

Mkilbride wrote:
sabata2 wrote:FSN is more like an anime in terms of it's fighting style. You get to watch a lot of what's going on, and personally I think that that detracts from the actual story moving through the fight.
It ends up going "oooh flashy lights!" and you quickly lose yourself in the fight and the colors.

With Tsukihime, the fights are all text based, but just like a book, they are extremely well written. And as such it takes no effort to imagine what's going on.
And imagining whats happening causes you to innately link the fight with what's going on in the story.


I have an imagination that can take words and turn them into pictures in my head and based on whats said, I imagine what's happening. I like doing that, that's why I read books. That's also why when books get turned into Movies, it usually disappoints me because their vision is so far different from mine. No way to know whose is correct, probably none us.

In Fate Stay Night, while the fights are awesome, it leaves little room for imagination.

Fate / Stay Night is for those with less imagination.
Tsukihime is for those with more imagination.

I'd guess I'd say those two things as definitive.


I think your conclusion is quite incorrect. Its more like:

F/SN is for those who like to enjoy the material presented before them without having to give it much thought.
Tsukihime is for those who enjoy creating their own scene out of the information presented before them.

I have a very very active imagination, but when given the option, I'd prefer to have it shown to me in full so that more of the story is interpreted as the author imagined it. I also dislike reading novels.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 10:28 pm

Mkilbride wrote:I have an imagination that can take words and turn them into pictures in my head and based on whats said, I imagine what's happening. I like doing that, that's why I read books. That's also why when books get turned into Movies, it usually disappoints me because their vision is so far different from mine. No way to know whose is correct, probably none us.

In Fate Stay Night, while the fights are awesome, it leaves little room for imagination.

Fate / Stay Night is for those with less imagination.
Tsukihime is for those with more imagination.

I'd guess I'd say those two things as definitive.


I agree that the fights in FSN leaves little room for the imagination. But I disagree that you have to picture a lot more in Tsukihime than in FSN. Yes, you do have to imagine a little bit more in Tsukihime, but the basis of how they portray the fights are basically the same. The only difference is that FSN uses a lot of clangs, bangs and crashes and puts a neat background picture so you know the basic scenery and how the characters move.

What I like about FSN is that Type-moon is able to get you to believe how the characters move in a fight with only only one background picture and several sound effects. I think that is pretty hard. For example, in the Lancer Archer fight in the prologue, I love the scene where Archer charges at Lancer. I have a real sense that Archer is pushing at something that seems to be impossible to do. Not only that, the background even moves and changes size. You still have to imagine what those movements of background even mean, but it is pretty much instinct. I think it is amazing how Type-moon was able to do that; mixing sound effects, narration, and even background movement to portray a fight scene. But the main thing Type-moon focuses on is the narration. With the narration, the reader has a good idea what is happening.

In Tsukihime, they pretty much do the same thing. They rely on narration, but it doesn't mean that it takes a lot more imagination to picture what is going on. They still show a background, but the background is just the scenery. So you don't have to imagine the scenery. The characters are shown, so you don't have to imagine the characters. The only thing they do that you have to imagine is the movements, but even that is play by play with the narration. If the narration goes into THAT much detail, then it does not take that much effort to imagine what is going on.

My point is that it does not take that much imagination to picture what is going on in BOTH games. True, Tsukihime takes a little more imagination to play, but the key word is "a little". Both games are within the boundaries of VN, they provide many VISUALS. Thus, in the imagination category, VNs are not as good as novels because the VNs limit themselves with their selling point, visuals.

Although it looks like I am bashing Tsukihime, I am not. Because I am saying that FSN does the EXACT SAME thing when it comes to narration. The narration is descriptive and you already know the visuals so you know what is happening. I just like how FSN is creative in the fact that they move the background. So that is why I say that the fights in FSN are much more flashy. Although, I was just told by Shourai that the fights will get flashier later on in Tsukihime so I have to play the rest of the game and see for myself.

And those was my thoughts, so is anyone willing to spare a penny? :D
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Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 10:53 pm

Well, with Tsukihime I really felt like I was reading a book with a picture every few pages, whereas with FSN I felt like I was watching an anime with a lot more information such as character's thoughts, vivid descriptions, etc.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » February 27th, 2009, 5:17 am

Watashimo wrote:Well, with Tsukihime I really felt like I was reading a book with a picture every few pages, whereas with FSN I felt like I was watching an anime with a lot more information such as character's thoughts, vivid descriptions, etc.
This. :D
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Unread postby sabata2 » February 27th, 2009, 5:23 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Watashimo wrote:Well, with Tsukihime I really felt like I was reading a book with a picture every few pages, whereas with FSN I felt like I was watching an anime with a lot more information such as character's thoughts, vivid descriptions, etc.
This. :D

That... is exactly why I hold Tsukihime a little higher than FSN.

I've seen the anime, and it was just like... "ugh, again? Lemme just read it and make the characters more badass than they really are."
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Unread postby Watashimo » February 27th, 2009, 6:29 am

sabata2 wrote:
Kikuchi wrote:
Watashimo wrote:Well, with Tsukihime I really felt like I was reading a book with a picture every few pages, whereas with FSN I felt like I was watching an anime with a lot more information such as character's thoughts, vivid descriptions, etc.
This. :D

That... is exactly why I hold Tsukihime a little higher than FSN.

I've seen the anime, and it was just like... "ugh, again? Lemme just read it and make the characters more badass than they really are."


Oddly enough, its why I hold FSN higher than Tsukihime. Lol. I prefer anime to novels :P
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 27th, 2009, 6:35 am

Animes are great. I watch alot of them. They can get me pumped and inspired by a good action scene.

Visual Novels, tend to make me think. They also leave a LONG impression compared to Animes. They also make me think how badass their characters are, which I rarely think while watching anime.

Shiki is a major bonus to Tsukihime. Without him, it just wouldn't be good. He's the epitome of what all men should try to be. :P He's a mans man, man.
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Unread postby -Shiki- » February 27th, 2009, 6:56 am

Mkilbride wrote:Shiki is a major bonus to Tsukihime. Without him, it just wouldn't be good. He's the epitome of what all men should try to be. :P He's a mans man, man.


dont forget to drink TEA when you are trying to be a real mans man, man.. :lol: you need to pump up your GARness lvl to be the perfect man :D
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 27th, 2009, 8:14 am

Mkilbride wrote:Shiki is a major bonus to Tsukihime. Without him, it just wouldn't be good. He's the epitome of what all men should try to be. :P He's a mans man, man.


Everyone has their own ideal vision of a true man. To me, Shiki would not be it. There are times where he seems to distant and indifferent, but there are also many times where he is cool. There are many cool characters in the Type-moon world, but there is only one that would fit my ideal vision of a true man.
My ideal vision of a true man: Souichirou Kuzuki.

Not only is he cool, but he has the aura of a man who truly DESERVES respect. He is someone who can encompass the truth. It is true that he is even more indifferent than Shiki, but the thing is I cannot read Souichirou's mind. He does not fluctuate. His emotions are calm. I never sense any anger or happiness from him, but that makes him seem like something more than a human, he seems closer to a Buddha. I have a feeling that his mind does not focus on either happiness or pain. I don't know the troubles that he had and I don't need to. I like how he can hide his past because the past is truly insignificant to him. A man should not look into the past too often but should instead focus on the present and future.

I believe a true man should carry an aura of respect and responsibility, and a sense of perfection as well. I like Saber's comment on the way he walks in FSN because it shows that he carries that perfection into daily life and it is something that he earned, not something that he received from birth. He is a man that I do not want to upset in any situation, whether it be fighting, debating or anything. I would describe him as a mighty river or a big tree, something that is large and can provide but because it is so large or powerful, people would see it as a God. Of course, in the Type-moon world, he is not very strong compared to supernatural beings but that makes it better since he is fighting against heroes and magicians as a human. It doesn't matter if the opponent is strong or not, he will fight. I can sense the determination.

The only flaw I see in him is that he doesn't fight for the good of others. I love his dogged loyalty to Caster but that loyalty does not fit my ideal vision. I believe a true man should help others AND himself.

That is why Souichirou Kuzuki is the closest thing to a true man in MY opinion.
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Unread postby allanh » February 27th, 2009, 10:18 am

I am on the side of liking anime more than reading a novel.

Yes, VNs have a lot more content than anime, however, anime gives a stronger impression (to me anyway) than VN due to its character animation and more importantly background music. I almost cried at the end of Fate/Stay Night anime when Shirou was reminiscing (excuse the spelling) the time he spent with Seiba-chan, while I can't say the same when "reading" the VN.

As for the stories itself, the main protagonists really don't matter that much to me. The main thing that attracted me to both Tsukihime and FSN are the girls :D
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Unread postby miszou » February 27th, 2009, 12:11 pm

Watashimo wrote:I have a very very active imagination, but when given the option, I'd prefer to have it shown to me in full so that more of the story is interpreted as the author imagined it. I also dislike reading novels.


Which is almost never the case in Anime based upon novels/games/manga, as they are usually interpretations of other people! :) Also it is not always good fort the quality of a novel to elaborate too much about certain things, as they can distract from the story or even make the story worse.

I know people like movies/anime over novels are in the majority, but visual novels are still NOVELS not interactive anime :) They create anime/movies of novels for people who dislike reading, which is ok, since now everybody can enjoy them. However I dislike it when they change the novels accordingly, favoring people who don't like to read.... They even create special movie version novels of movies based upon novels .... So I just hope visual novels stay novels and interactive anime become a different genre :)
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Unread postby -Shiki- » February 27th, 2009, 3:41 pm

TheRedArcher wrote:
Mkilbride wrote:Shiki is a major bonus to Tsukihime. Without him, it just wouldn't be good. He's the epitome of what all men should try to be. :P He's a mans man, man.


Not only is he cool, but he has the aura of a man who truly DESERVES respect. He is someone who can encompass the truth. It is true that he is even more indifferent than Shiki, but the thing is I cannot read Souichirou's mind. He does not fluctuate. His emotions are calm. I never sense any anger or happiness from him, but that makes him seem like something more than a human, he seems closer to a Buddha. I have a feeling that his mind does not focus on either happiness or pain. I don't know the troubles that he had and I don't need to. I like how he can hide his past because the past is truly insignificant to him. A man should not look into the past too often but should instead focus on the present and future.


i agree that kuzuki certainly is a great man i many aspects..but are your perception on him true?we do not know what is going on in his mind so its wrong to directly judge his charater directly..as for the general traits, that we can tell..how do you know he ignores his past?
to be fully aware of yourself, u need to live life NOW and with guidance from the PAST, pave your way to the FUTURE..a man who forgets his past may seem cool to some, but i think that kind of person actually runs from his past which do not depict the image of a true man..as of Shiki, he deals with his life and interprets it logically whie figuring the best action.. i see this as more logical in your life..
what i'm juz trying to say is, eventhough kuzuki seems like the one closest to THE ultimate man, what you cant judge, dont assume..to me, it looks like he's juz trying to use his abilities because he can do it..not that he's interested..
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