Teach Me Minnasan/sensei!!

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Teach Me Minnasan/sensei!!

Unread postby Lil Sister » January 27th, 2009, 11:46 am

Here I'll be posting up some questions I'm having trouble answering alone. Some of them fanfic related others just out of my own curiosity.

First question is. In terms of strength would Arcueid(The version which hadn't been tainted by Roa) be a match for Primate Murder(That white dog that needs 7+ Counter Guardians to hold down)? Please tell me why you think so.

Oh and also. What does summoning the Castle Brunestud actually do? I know its a powerful Reality Marble but I never actually understood what happens inside it.
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Re: Teach Me Minnasan/sensei!!

Unread postby zweiterversuch » January 27th, 2009, 5:28 pm

Hello!

here I'll be posting up some answers. Some of them might be true others just out of my own fantasy or imaginary world.


first answer:

Yes.

second answer:

the castle does pretty much nothing but I (very important) have always thought if it as a parallel universe in the form of a castle.

let me explain.
the castle might contain any kind of objects and have any kind of rooms and other places but it must still be a caslte at the end.

pretty much like Dracula's castle in castlevania or nero's beast lair.
(chaos might take any kind of shape it wants, it is still being chaos.)
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Unread postby that one guy » January 28th, 2009, 3:25 am

IIRC, the castle itself is just a castle, but having a Marble Phantasm strong enough to bring it to you is godlike.
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Unread postby gunwarrior » January 28th, 2009, 6:31 am

*Might as well jump in here*
Quick question, what are the sorceries? I know that theres at least 4

  • 1 ???
  • 2 Kaleidoscope
  • 3 Creation of life (forgot the name)
  • ? Destruction
  • ? Interation I have no idea what it doesdoes =/

*Would go to Fuyuki wiki but never been there before and having a hard time finding the site*
Anyone more learned in magic mind explaining these?


Edit: Never mind
Last edited by gunwarrior on January 28th, 2009, 6:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 28th, 2009, 6:32 am

Arcuied's power lies in her marble phantasm

yoinked from fuyuki wiki:

Marble Phantasm - Imagination Actualization. Just like the name says, the power to actualize imagination. The powers of the extensions of nature/the world, elementals. By linking their consciousness with the world, they are able to alter the environment as they will it to. The level of the actualization depends on the scale of the elemental. However, the only things that can be altered is nature. Those creatures that are independent of nature cannot be affected directly (like humans). Animal control is possible. (Control of monsterse or creatures classified as Mara/Demonic probably aren't). Examples of use are turning an atmospheric layer into a vacuum (used against Roa), the Millenium Castle, fairy villages, etc. Possible for Arcueid with her limiter released to cause a town to appear in the mountains. However, given that she's making it in a place where there's already people, she'll have to destroy it first in order to make it, causing some time for it to be completed.

Melty Blood application of Marble Phantasm involves countless chains acting as her tactile extension (think phantom limb) and is something along the lines of her own touch sensations being magnified. The reason why what's grabbing the target isn't a hand but chains is emotionally representative of her feelings in never allowing herself to be freed from her restraints.

as reference use fuyuki like a bible. it's all taken directly from source material. link: http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » January 28th, 2009, 11:10 am

wow...


you learn something new everyday...
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 28th, 2009, 11:34 am

gunwarrior wrote:
*Might as well jump in here*
Quick question, what are the sorceries? I know that theres at least 4

  • 1 ???
  • 2 Kaleidoscope
  • 3 Creation of life (forgot the name)
  • ? Destruction
  • ? Interation I have no idea what it doesdoes =/

*Would go to Fuyuki wiki but never been there before and having a hard time finding the site*
Anyone more learned in magic mind explaining these?


Edit: Never mind
1. Denial of virginity. Dunno what it does, but the name is already suggestive. 8)
2. Kaleidoscope. Old Zel-jii's trademark.
3. Heaven's Feel. War of The Holy Grail. Pseudo-creation of the Holy Grail by establishing a path to Akasha. Founded by the Einzbern, Tohsaka, and Machiri.
4. Not much known.
5. Blue. Miss Blue's trademark. Solely meant to "destroy".
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Unread postby NonExistence » January 28th, 2009, 7:08 pm

Kikuchi wrote:
gunwarrior wrote:
*Might as well jump in here*
Quick question, what are the sorceries? I know that theres at least 4

  • 1 ???
  • 2 Kaleidoscope
  • 3 Creation of life (forgot the name)
  • ? Destruction
  • ? Interation I have no idea what it doesdoes =/

*Would go to Fuyuki wiki but never been there before and having a hard time finding the site*
Anyone more learned in magic mind explaining these?


Edit: Never mind
1. Denial of virginity. Dunno what it does, but the name is already suggestive. 8)
2. Kaleidoscope. Old Zel-jii's trademark.
3. Heaven's Feel. War of The Holy Grail. Pseudo-creation of the Holy Grail by establishing a path to Akasha. Founded by the Einzbern, Tohsaka, and Machiri.
4. Not much known.
5. Blue. Miss Blue's trademark. Solely meant to "destroy".

don't confuse the guy any more than he(?) already is.
the first sorcery is denial of nothingness. no one has any idea what it does, because the person who used it died god-knows-how-long-ago.
the second sorcery creates links to parallel universes. rin pwns sakura w/ it.
the third sorcery materializes the soul (as in, makes it manageable so you can stuff it into stuff). shirou ends up relying on it.
the fourth sorcery doesn't exist yet. (as in, it hasn't been EVER brought up in ANY of type-moon's works.)
no one knows what the fifth does. might potentially have something to do w/ aoko's over-9000 destructive powers.

and there you are.
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Unread postby sabata2 » January 28th, 2009, 7:40 pm

Pretty sure the first Sorcery can be interpreted as

Forced creation.
If there is NOT Nothing, then there must be something.
It could be complete regeneration, or creation of the core elements of life.
What it does is lost to time, but I'm pretty sure it means that it FORCES SOMETHING to exist.


Atleast that's how I'd interpret what you explained it as.
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Unread postby Mazyrian » January 28th, 2009, 9:30 pm

First Sorcery could also
make that something becomes nothing and thus vanishes (if something is nothing it cannot exist)


Also, in Arc vs Primate Murder:
I'm pretty sure PM is stronger. IIRC fuyuki says so; also, Arc has stats about 4x Servant, though she would have trouble against 2 at the same time, while to beat PM you need 7 CGs
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » January 28th, 2009, 9:43 pm

Say
wouldn't either the first sorcery or fourth sorcery be acutally the thing that actually fuels Sacchin's Reality Marble?
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 28th, 2009, 11:47 pm

ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki

4th sorcery is time manipulation I believe. (kiritsugu imitated it btw)

Sacchin's DG is not based on any of the 5 I believe.
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Unread postby Lil Sister » January 29th, 2009, 1:05 am

Mazyrian wrote:Also, in Arc vs Primate Murder:
I'm pretty sure PM is stronger. IIRC fuyuki says so; also, Arc has stats about 4x Servant, though she would have trouble against 2 at the same time, while to beat PM you need 7 CGs


But then...
Isn't current Arc equal to the strength of 4 Servant? Meaning her 30% = 4 Servant in power making her as strong as 13.33333333 servants if she wasn't using 70% of her full power in suppressing her desire to drink blood? I asked for the power of untainted Arcueid meaning before she drank Roa's blood
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Unread postby gunwarrior » January 29th, 2009, 4:21 am

Xanathos wrote:
ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki

4th sorcery is time manipulation I believe. (kiritsugu imitated it btw)

Sacchin's DG is not based on any of the 5 I believe.


Umm, that seems right for the most part, but
How are Gil and Zel more powerful than Arc? Gilgamesh being there doesn't make sense since Black Sakura inst-killed him and even shirou took him on. (Zel maybe, don't know much about him) Its also hard to believe that Berserker is equal to black saber, that doesn't seem right.

Or am I missing something?

(Btw, is that pure power or actual probibility of wining a fight?)
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 29th, 2009, 5:20 am

gunwarrior wrote:
Xanathos wrote:
ORT > Crimson Moon > Primate Murder > Zelretch > Gilgamesh > Arcueid ≥ Black Sakura > Berserker = Black Saber ≥ Saber > Lancer > Rider = Archer > Caster ≥ Aoko = Nrvnqsr = Kouma = Barthomeloi ≥ Kojirou > Ciel ≥ Great Teacher Hassan (GTH) ≥ "Ryougi Shiki" > V Sion = AC Satsuki = R.Shiki = Bazett ≥ Akiha = Fujino = Araya ≥ Touko = Alba ≥ 18th Roa > > SHIKI = Kiri = Reinforced Kuzuki ≥ Sion = UBW Shirou > ha Avenger > Nanaya = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Leysritt > Satsuki ≥ Rio = Avalon Shirou > ha Sakura > Salaryman Dead = Ilya = Corpse ≥ Azaka ≥ Misayo > Kirie = Zombie ≥ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee > Shinji > Fake Shiki

4th sorcery is time manipulation I believe. (kiritsugu imitated it btw)

Sacchin's DG is not based on any of the 5 I believe.


Umm, that seems right for the most part, but
How are Gil and Zel more powerful than Arc? Gilgamesh being there doesn't make sense since Black Sakura inst-killed him and even shirou took him on. (Zel maybe, don't know much about him) Its also hard to believe that Berserker is equal to black saber, that doesn't seem right.

Or am I missing something?

(Btw, is that pure power or actual probibility of wining a fight?)


Pure power.

Yanked from the wiki

A. In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output can be changed in accordance with her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is only allowed an output that is slightly stronger than her opponent. So. Single entity ability of Arc to a Servant is roughly the same.

Servants use their respective Noble Phantasms while Arc uses her unlimited backup to fight, and differences occur depending on affinity. A simple-is-best Arc is an all rounder, and so generally her chances of winning are only high, but there are those opponents that she just has helplessly awful compatibility with.

For example, in cases where even if the guy's stats are about the same as Arc, he has a ridiculously large number of weapons, and with high versatility. As the amount Arc is allowed to take out is based on "unit ability", against types like Gil-sama, well, you see?

Like with the "corpses", where each won't have to bother fending off attacks from foot soldier level opponents, the one who'd have the lead is the one who has the more weapons. In Broad Bridge, the reason why Servants excellent at one-on-one combat didn't stand out was because of this. Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats.

Note: A bunch of different ways of interpreting this from what I've seen. The 4 times amount mentioned in previous Kinoko comments earlier could be the maximum amount of Arc in her 30% state that she gets depending on how powerful her enemy is. Or something similar, but on average she's going to be less than that. Base stats could be the same as one average Servant, but due to the Counter Force modifier this is adjusted to 2 times the amount of one Servant (not factoring in Noble Phantasm powers or amounts; probably the equivalent of Berserker).

Mrm, either way this is a mess. Ultimate form of Counter-Force 30% Arc = 30%. Servants and base Arc = 7.5%, while anti-Servant Arc is 15%?

Or maybe 30% Arc (with adjustment) = 2 Servants.
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Unread postby deathknight » February 2nd, 2009, 1:26 am

Don't let pure power judge everything. On the charts listed Nrvnqsr was a lot more powerful than Nanaya but he still got owned in the end and lets not forget Arcueid as well. So just because on raw power someone exceeds someone else that by NO means guarantees an easy victory. There are too many variables in a fight that would allow supposedly "weak" characters to win.

And what happened to Wallachia and Altrouge and Kokuto? I didnt see their rank on the list.
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Unread postby nobaka » February 2nd, 2009, 1:59 am

deathknight wrote:Don't let pure power judge everything. On the charts listed Nrvnqsr was a lot more powerful than Nanaya but he still got owned in the end and lets not forget Arcueid as well. So just because on raw power someone exceeds someone else that by NO means guarantees an easy victory. There are too many variables in a fight that would allow supposedly "weak" characters to win.

And what happened to Wallachia and Altrouge and Kokuto? I didnt see their rank on the list.


Remember, Nanaya =/= Tohno Shiki. Nanaya would have had 0% of beating Nero. He simply can't hurt him.

Personally, I would say Fake Shiki > Shinji. Fake Shiki did, in fact, kill people, whereas Shinji only possesses some skill in archery, since he has no magic circuits of his own. On the same note, I think Shinji ≥ Kokuto in power, simply because Shinji has some skill in archery. Kokuto's just a guy with a girlfriend who can kill God.

Wouldn't Wallachia be too variable to rank effectively? I would think it depends heavily on the rumors of the area.

No clue on Altrouge.
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Unread postby Mazyrian » February 2nd, 2009, 1:25 pm

Lil Sister wrote:
Mazyrian wrote:Also, in Arc vs Primate Murder:
I'm pretty sure PM is stronger. IIRC fuyuki says so; also, Arc has stats about 4x Servant, though she would have trouble against 2 at the same time, while to beat PM you need 7 CGs


But then...
Isn't current Arc equal to the strength of 4 Servant? Meaning her 30% = 4 Servant in power making her as strong as 13.33333333 servants if she wasn't using 70% of her full power in suppressing her desire to drink blood? I asked for the power of untainted Arcueid meaning before she drank Roa's blood

Even if untainted, Arc has to keep her bloodlust in check, that's why she's always at 30%. At 100% I guess she would be like Crimson Moon (maybe a bit weaker).
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » February 2nd, 2009, 1:34 pm

Mazyrian wrote:
Lil Sister wrote:
Mazyrian wrote:Also, in Arc vs Primate Murder:
I'm pretty sure PM is stronger. IIRC fuyuki says so; also, Arc has stats about 4x Servant, though she would have trouble against 2 at the same time, while to beat PM you need 7 CGs


But then...
Isn't current Arc equal to the strength of 4 Servant? Meaning her 30% = 4 Servant in power making her as strong as 13.33333333 servants if she wasn't using 70% of her full power in suppressing her desire to drink blood? I asked for the power of untainted Arcueid meaning before she drank Roa's blood

Even if untainted, Arc has to keep her bloodlust in check, that's why she's always at 30%. At 100% I guess she would be like Crimson Moon (maybe a bit weaker).


Arc's vampiric impulse is strong because she's a True Ancestor, it became stronger because she drank Roa's blood. The difference in how much strength she uses to suppress her impulse without tasting blood and after tasting blood has to be put in consideration. That's why Lil Sister asked for her power before Arcuied drank blood.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » February 2nd, 2009, 2:03 pm

NonExistence wrote:
the first sorcery is denial of nothingness. no one has any idea what it does, because the person who used it died god-knows-how-long-ago.
the second sorcery creates links to parallel universes. rin pwns sakura w/ it.
the third sorcery materializes the soul (as in, makes it manageable so you can stuff it into stuff). shirou ends up relying on it.
the fourth sorcery doesn't exist yet. (as in, it hasn't been EVER brought up in ANY of type-moon's works.)
no one knows what the fifth does. might potentially have something to do w/ aoko's over-9000 destructive powers.

and there you are.
I'm not confusing him more than you do.
1. Denial of Nothingness. I remember somewhere in fuyuki (yeah, fuyuki, the very same one which referred it to as "Denial of Nothingness") it was referred to as Denial of Virginity. Probably have something to do with one's own virginity (?), seriously.
2. Kaleidoscope. Kishua Zelretch Schweinorg the Wizard Marshal's trademark. (He already knew it.)
3. Golden Grail aka Heaven's Feel. Holy Grail War.
4. Possibly time travel, as said. I'm not sure if the one Kiritsugu used is a derivation of this one, though.
5. Blue. It's sole purpose is to destroy. Aoko Aozaki's trademark.


As for 100% Arc, we all know that Arc relies on the power of the planet. (You could also say Arc is everyone +1) If the planet itself is destroyed, then there you go. :P

Gil and Zel are more powerful than Arc. Gil can destroy the entire Earth with a baseball bat if he wants to. As for Zel... That man killed Crimson Moon Brunestud aka TYPE MOON just because he didn't like him. 8) Of course, after that he aged a little and cannot do such crazy feats like that anymore...

Shinji > Fake Shiki because Shinji can cast magic, be as it his own magic or not.
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