Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 5th, 2008, 2:37 am

Well I thought that MechHISUI could actualy be of the Beserker calss since she keeps going. Say what charcters didn't show up being leisted here. The only ones I though think of are Roa/SHIKI and Akiha's student friends, along with Inui as well.
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Unread postby NanatsuYa » December 5th, 2008, 6:15 am

I thought Mech-Hisui could be caster since she has a lot ranged weapons (but wouldn't that be like Archer then???)

But oh well, let's say this then:

Master: Trhvmn Ortenrosse
Servant: Nrvnqsr Chaos (Caster)

Master: Kohaku
Servant: Mech-Hisui (Archer)

Master: Zepia Eltnam Oberon (Wallachia)
Servant: Kishima Kouma (Berserker)

* if anyone does not know, Trhvmn is the "formal king of the dead apostles", "The Lord of the white Wing." He is opposed to Altrouge....
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Unread postby thisoneguy » January 6th, 2009, 1:28 pm

Aoko is a "True Magic" user that can destroy a city, you have to be kidding if she can't beat a Servant summoned by some, though talented, beginner mage. If the Servant is a strong hero and the mage is really top class, therefore the Servant can fight at its max, than it might be hard to say. Nasu is god, however, so he can basically say anything and that would be official.

Shiki just has to be assassin class. His eyes is definitely EX level in terms of power and potential, since they can potentially kill just about anything. They'll just have the potential to kill him in return, which i think is more interesting than the no restrictions that Ryoga has, who apparently has higher level eyes but lower physical capabilities than Nanaya Shiki.

His speed is A at least. The dude can effortlessly run up walls. From what I've seen of anyone else, from Fate or Tsukihime, few could match that. Granted, those Servants can't achieve their full potential due to the lackings of their masters. It would make sense for many fully powered Servants to have generally higher physical capabilities than a serious Shiki at his current level, since they are Earth greatest heros. From what I see of them though, I'm not too impress. This may be due to that they are not at full power.

Can't say much for anything else for Shiki except Instinct, though, since none of them are really shown. He has been able to easily overpower a weaken Arcueid during that rape scene, though, even while sharing half his life with SHIKI.

Kouma is apparently as strong as most Servant, despite not having the advantage of being a spirit (immune to all conventional weapons and such), so his stats would have to be really high. Nanaya Kiri actually came close to killing Kouma, Kouma just doesn't show much of it because he doesn't show pain. This would make Kiri up there as well.

Tohno Makihisa said that he may not had needed Kouma to kill the Nanayas if Akiha was born 10 years earlier. This may just be his speculation but it may mean that she is potentially very powerful as well. "What seems" may not be "what is", however, since what Nasu say is "what is"

LOL Noble Phantasm: Misaki Harem is like EX Overload. Arcueid, at full power of course, is about as strong as they come.
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Unread postby Mazyrian » January 6th, 2009, 2:45 pm

Aoko is indeed able to match a Servant, but only an average one with an average NP. Also, she's no match for a serious Caster (all this said by Nasu)
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Unread postby thisoneguy » January 6th, 2009, 3:08 pm

I can't read Japanese so I can't judge Nasu's words for myself, but from what I've seen, some people are even arguing on that. One guy said that Nasu specified that Kouma and Aoko would be a good match for Saber, Archer, or Lance if they are matched up well. Saber is definitely not an average servent with an average NP.

From what i've read of a translation of what a guy did of some of what Nasu said, it seems like Nasu isn't too sure himself lol. He did use a lot "maybe"s and "I supposes." The idea of Servants not being harmed by conventional weapons is pretty vague as well. Servants are definitely corporal forms, as Shirou can personally attest to (yes, sex, among other things).
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Unread postby Mazyrian » January 6th, 2009, 9:51 pm

The idea is that since they're spiritual beings, even in corporeal form they can't be harmed by non-magical means (Saber may be an exception, since she does have a body, like Gilgamesh). To what extent this works, however, is not clear (at least by me); if a car crashes a Servant, what happens with him? He stays where he is, or goes flying so much meters, but unharmed?
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Unread postby Jedah » January 11th, 2009, 11:19 pm

Image

From what i've read of a translation of what a guy did of some of what Nasu said, it seems like Nasu isn't too sure himself lol. He did use a lot "maybe"s and "I supposes." The idea of Servants not being harmed by conventional weapons is pretty vague as well. Servants are definitely corporal forms, as Shirou can personally attest to (yes, sex, among other things).


I think the reason for this is because the Nasuverse is supposed to be more about matchups and countermeasures rather then raw powerlevels.

Like R.Shiki and N.Shiki are both technically capable of killing anyone who has inferior agility to them, regardless of other stats. They could destroy the Universe, but would probably lose pathetically to Assassin's Tsubame Gaeshi.

There is also Sacchin with Depletion Garden. Depletion Garden could potentially allow her to kill Zeltrech ( Infinite parallel worlds of a reality marble with no mana will still be no mana ), but would be worthless against Shiki or other people who don't rely on mana.

Ciel with immortality -> again, it depends on whether or not her foe has a means of containing or destroying her much more then simply being stronger and faster.
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Unread postby that one guy » January 12th, 2009, 3:32 am

thisoneguy wrote:His speed is A at least. The dude can effortlessly run up walls. From what I've seen of anyone else, from Fate or Tsukihime, few could match that.


Pretty much everyone in Fate can do that, aside from half of the Masters. And hey, a lot of them can under the right conditions too.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » January 12th, 2009, 3:33 am

Ok with that stats pic of Sacchin proves how unlucky she is. Isn't it sad Sacchin the only way you'll be close to Tohno Shiki is if you're a Servant. On the up side he might have to result to the same means Shirou did in the Visual novel for Saber, but with knowing how to pleasure a girl though.
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » January 12th, 2009, 4:13 am

that one guy wrote:
thisoneguy wrote:His speed is A at least. The dude can effortlessly run up walls. From what I've seen of anyone else, from Fate or Tsukihime, few could match that.


Pretty much everyone in Fate can do that, aside from half of the Masters. And hey, a lot of them can under the right conditions too.

i don't remember anyone from fate running up on walls, dodging things at bullet speed or even fighting an angry true ancestor like arc... thing is, fate have stats/power levels then again shiki's got proof....
and yet, shiki was still categorized by nasu as a mere average human.
Guess the type-moon guys wasn't that good at physics and just wanted to set random omgwtfBS stats on fate cacs lol

btw, look at sacchin's luck stat LOLOL :lol:(cute sacchin pic <3)
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 4th, 2009, 12:13 pm

Just feeling like complaining about Shiki being made into a god by some people.

Shiki's speed is B at best during Tsukihime and it probably gets to A+ or so as Satsujinki. His Endurance is a measly pathetic E to D, since he IS a puny little human and so is his Strength. I'm not sure about Mana, but seeing how he is a psychic and his family's inbreeding potentially causing him to have a high number of MCs(The Nanayas are similar to Magi in that way), I guess it could be high or low. MEoDP is not EX imo - Shiki is severely limited in what he can kill and what he cannot kill and the lashbacks of killing higher-levelled things is a serious drawback.

Basically, I doubt he could fight evenly against opponents like Saber(unless her Master is Shirou... then she is doomed), Rider and Lancer, since their speeds and, most of all, skills are suited for melee combat against fast guys.

Shiki needs a sword. That's all I can say.
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby Jinnai » June 4th, 2009, 6:31 pm

SolarAdept wrote:Basically, I doubt he could fight evenly against opponents like Saber(unless her Master is Shirou... then she is doomed), Rider and Lancer, since their speeds and, most of all, skills are suited for melee combat against fast guys.

Shiki needs a sword. That's all I can say.

I think its more that Shiki lacks in training and experience (well and endurance, but training might help that somewhat, though not to uber levels).
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 4th, 2009, 7:13 pm

Yeah, he needs some specialized training and a longer stick(a sword). Preferably something like a wakizashi or something, to keep in touch with his japanese roots.
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 8th, 2009, 7:25 am

SolarAdept wrote: Shiki's speed is B at best during Tsukihime and it probably gets to A+ or so as Satsujinki.


Even this is blowing it out of proportions. When providing stats for a character, Archer should be used as a yard stick. Archer essentially represents the limit an above average human can achieve, which is approximately C. Therefore, even Satsujinki is a rank B at VERY VERY best, this is assuming the Tohno's have done some serious selective breeding and eugenics. Rank A and above are treading into legendary/demigod territory, these should be unreachable for modern day humans, unless granted by gods. Giving Satsujinki A+ agility is like saying he can dash faster than lancer/true assassin and break the sound barrier with his swings like Berserker. This is kind of stretching it a bit.
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » June 8th, 2009, 2:21 pm

Truth be told Archer was an ordinary human to begin with who did some kind of self training. While Tohno Shiki has the basic training of the Nanaya Clan pluss the Blood of the Nanaya that can bost his skills depending on if he does go Satsujinki. Besides that's his form he takes when Tsukihime 2 is supposed to begin. I mean I'm sure he does eventually train to become like that. Although it could be that his bloodline will make him like that.

So saying Archer is a baseline for normal humans would be the right thing, but Tohno Shiki wasn't really born as a normal human to begin with. I mean no normal human could be able to obtain the MEoDP through a near death experence if you ask me.
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » June 8th, 2009, 2:34 pm

SolarAdept wrote:Yeah, he needs some specialized training and a longer stick(a sword). Preferably something like a wakizashi or something, to keep in touch with his japanese roots.


Wouldn't it be cooler if he used the Kusanagi Blade instead of Nanatsu-Yoru? XD

Kid-Wolf wrote:So saying Archer is a baseline for normal humans would be the right thing, but Tohno Shiki wasn't really born as a normal human to begin with. I mean no normal human could be able to obtain the MEoDP through a near death experence if you ask me.


I have to say that no normal human obtain a Reality Marble either... But ,talking about the body potential of them, I agree Archer is normal and Shiki isn't

Kid-Wolf wrote:Truth be told Archer was an ordinary human to begin with who did some kind of self training. While Tohno Shiki has the basic training of the Nanaya Clan pluss the Blood of the Nanaya that can bost his skills depending on if he does go Satsujinki. Besides that's his form he takes when Tsukihime 2 is supposed to begin. I mean I'm sure he does eventually train to become like that. Although it could be that his bloodline will make him like that.


This can be true, but I think the AGI A+ that SolarAdept suggested still is way too high. I mean, we're putting Satsujinki at the level of a demigod!!! He can be freaking powerful but a demigod is too much...
I highly suggest AGI B+ , but at max it can have AGI A...
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 8th, 2009, 8:26 pm

Is Kojirou a demigod? Is True Assassin a demigod? Shiki has the same, or even higher, physical potential than Kojirou, who reached his state through skill and not physical speed, which means he CAN get to A+ speed during his prime, which seems to be it during Talk and Prelude.

Actually, Shirou/Archer is not really that normal. His body is such that he can achieve a Reality Marble with a rather small amount of training as well as the irregular affinity of Swords, as Rin said. Sure, Shiki's a psychic with extremely high athletic potential, but Shirou's rather special in his own area as well.
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby Vhailor » June 8th, 2009, 10:32 pm

True Assassin : he stole the stat from Lancer thanks one of his skills
Assassin : A+ agi is probably due to Tsubame Gaeshi but not specified.
Archer : I don't know if his stats are the one he achieve as a human or boosted after he made the pact with Gaia.


I side with Keeper of Gil's Vault on this point and i think his stats would be C ranked at the very most and nothing more. The argument Shiki bloodline is very selective would likely give him upper hand over human BUT see below and realise how insane your suggestion is.

The stats of FSN just work like this : If we consider 1 is a normal value for a human, then E rank = 10, D = 20 ect ect. (Source : Fate/Side material if i remember. http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/parameters.htm ). I can accept Shiki, thanks training and bloodline could reach E rank, maybe D rank but the B rank is out of the question and the C rank should be discussed. But Shiki in tsukihime is weak :

Nasu Comment for the first volume of Melty Blood.
"At this point, "MELTY BLOOD" caused a major contradiction.
Since this was a fighting game, the position of the protagonist, Tohno Shiki, a character that could participate in combat only by means of trump cards, was reversed, and he became involved in the story as a protagonist that can "fight normally".

Shiki is certainly not a common human but he doesn't make the comparison with the physical prouess of the servants. And remember the other magus and human protagonists of the Nasuverse are also able to accomplish prouess to like running in a forest at 50 km/h for exemple so, well, running on the ceiling is certainly a thing but definitively not "so impossible" in the Nasuverse. I think Shiki and Satsujin are not so specials in terms of physical abilities.
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 8th, 2009, 11:24 pm

1 is not the value for a human there, it's the 'unit' of counting. Normal human stats are around E or so in the physical stats.

Sure, Tsukihime Shiki is probably around D rank in speed, but Satsujinki IS pretty much nearing the limit of human ability by the time of Talk and Prelude, which means he probably IS A rank in speed.

Tsubame Gaeshi is a skill that works regardless of speed and does not add any speed to the stats. A+ is Kojirou's own speed, regardless of skills. Otherwise he could not keep up with Saber, or repel Lancer, Berserker and Rider, all of whom have enormous advantage in stats over him, with AGI being Kojirou's only asset, LCK aside(not sure if it is useful anywhere but against Gae Bolg).

And if Fate/Zero Assassin can serve as a marker, than True Assassin's speed CAN be A rank. And the Hassans WERE normal humans, which means that Satsujinki CAN have A in speed. I think that what TA ate from Lancer was his B rank strength.

Here's a pic of Assassin's statsheet from F/Z:

Image
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Re: Give Tsukihime Characters Stat Sheets! [Lots of Spoilers]

Unread postby Vhailor » June 9th, 2009, 12:54 am

1 is not the value for a human there, it's the 'unit' of counting. Normal human stats are around E or so in the physical stats.


No, Nasu specified himself that 1 is a normal value and E = 10. It is said in Fate/Side Material if i'm correct. Check Fuyuki Parameter. And Tsukihime Shiki is not even E rank. Nanaya would get some better physical stat because he breaks the limits restraining his body at the cost of his health but Shiki himself is weak and the visual novel underlines his weak physical condition (anemia, no sport ect ect.).

Concerning the zero assassin, you re right, he got A rank agi and there is also Lancelot who is a monster. But those are heroic spirits/wraith and extraordinary beings. They are far superior to human. Satsujin doesn't move at supersonic speed, Saber can. Satsujin is definitively fast. BUT he is an assassin and to strike without being noticed is expected from this kind of guy. It is not because of his speed but mainly because of preparations and surprise. Satsujin is fast but definitively not enough to gain A rank or B rank agi. Kojiro = three instant slash, Berserker = slash at the speed of sound, Lancer 100 meters backdash in a blink of an eye.

If you are curious, just go check the precedent link. It is interesting.
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