Kishima kouma in tsukihime (spoilers)

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Kishima kouma in tsukihime (spoilers)

Unread postby zweiterversuch » April 14th, 2008, 7:15 pm

I have just played Hisuis route and realized Kishima kouma had stayed in the Tohno house hold for almost three years.
Well... It doesn't actually says "KISHIMA KOUMA was here" but as Shiki asks whether there is a TV in the house Kisui says some visitors has one but they take it again with them.
and among the name those visitors there was Kishima-sama's older son... and because Kouma is the last kishima I thought they visitor and kouma could be the same person.

Or I am wrong?

but well it is pretty amazing he was still alive...
I thought the one Shiki fought against in KT was just a imageof his own death.
but This could mean this one is the real one... or the one in MB is the real one.
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Unread postby DragoonKnight » April 14th, 2008, 9:07 pm

Kouma is a real person, presumably he was 'hired' by Tohno and since he didn't really have a home he just stayed at the mansion.
Was he the one to stab to originally stab Shiki? In the manga it some other guy, after Kouma tells him to go back home.
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Unread postby JimmyT64 » April 15th, 2008, 10:34 am

Kouma killed Shikis REAL dad, Nanaya Kiri, the day the Tohnos attacked the Nanaya mansion, along with most of the rest of the Nanaya clan. In non-dreamworld, Kouma has never attacked Shiki, despite seeing him on that night. No one knows why, possibly because a visual novel about a dead guy wouldn't be as good.
Tsukihime drinking game. 1. Every time a word or a phrase is repeated 3 or more times, take a drink (eg. This chair).
2. Every time Shiki claims not to understand something already explained, take a drink
3. Every time Shiki doesn't realize someone is hitting on him, take a drink.
4. Every time someone who should be dead, isn't, take a drink.
5. Every time Shiki does something ridiculous with points\lines.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » April 15th, 2008, 11:30 am

DragoonKnight wrote:Kouma is a real person, presumably he was 'hired' by Tohno and since he didn't really have a home he just stayed at the mansion.
Was he the one to stab to originally stab Shiki? In the manga it some other guy, after Kouma tells him to go back home.


which manga are you talking about?
Tsukihime's ?

Is there a new manga?
http://visualnoveldai.com/
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Unread postby DragoonKnight » April 15th, 2008, 12:33 pm

No still Tsukihime, it appears we see Shiki attacked by some guy with a blade protruding out of his arm.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » April 16th, 2008, 1:31 pm

DragoonKnight wrote:No still Tsukihime, it appears we see Shiki attacked by some guy with a blade protruding out of his arm.



ok...
But the kouma in MB is the real deal, isn't he?
I mean he has a different ending as the other "bad" charachters (like Arcuried, and tatari Shion)
and he even fights against Aoko who he doesn't have any conection with.
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Unread postby Phlebas » April 21st, 2008, 9:58 pm

The MB routes don't come across that serious to me, so I wouldn't read much into it one way or another.
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Unread postby Brizzle » April 22nd, 2008, 2:09 am

DragoonKnight wrote:No still Tsukihime, it appears we see Shiki attacked by some guy with a blade protruding out of his arm.

That would be Makihisa.
Same blade bloods as SHIKI.


In MB, Kouma is a Tatari. Translations of the PS2 routes are available in this faq.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » April 22nd, 2008, 5:00 pm

Brizzle wrote:
DragoonKnight wrote:No still Tsukihime, it appears we see Shiki attacked by some guy with a blade protruding out of his arm.

That would be Makihisa.
Same blade bloods as SHIKI.


In MB, Kouma is a Tatari. Translations of the PS2 routes are available in this faq.



OHH... so after their first "meeting" in the nanaya Forest they haven'tmeet ever again. (shiki x Kouma)
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Unread postby Brizzle » April 23rd, 2008, 2:08 am

zweiterversuch wrote:OHH... so after their first "meeting" in the nanaya Forest they haven'tmeet ever again. (shiki x Kouma)


Yes. The encounter left such an impression on Shiki that Kouma became his own personal manifestation of death. Although I believe I did hear that Kouma did live in the Tohno mansion until Akiha sent him out after Makihisa's death. It's possible that they just never encountered each other.

Shiki x Kouma sounds sexy. :wink:
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Unread postby DarkEyes » April 23rd, 2008, 7:43 am

Brizzle wrote:Shiki x Kouma sounds sexy. :wink:


No, it sounds weird >.>
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » April 23rd, 2008, 9:13 pm

DarkEyes wrote:
Brizzle wrote:Shiki x Kouma sounds sexy. :wink:


No, it sounds weird >.>


It does't even sound...
" you can't read sounds dakara"

but why do you find it weird?
it is like:

a doujjinshi
Saber x Shiro

or a movie

Silvester x Schwarzenegger
isn't it?
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 1st, 2008, 12:50 am

The actual quote is:

"Relatives.@ The eldest son of Kugamine-sama from a branch of the family, Touzaki-sama's third daughter and her fiancee, and Kishima-sama's eldest son came to stay for close to three years."

Eldest son indicates that there have been more sons. As we know that Kouma didn't have any siblings, then this couldn't be referencing Kouma. Likely either Kouma's son or nephew once (or however many times) removed?
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Unread postby Kansho » May 1st, 2008, 1:23 am

That was refering to Kouma since Kouma is the last Kishima alive. He killed them all before Nanaya's clan destruction.

And is mentioned in another place (I didn't remember exactly where) that definitely, that "Kishima eldest son" was Kouma, the Tohnos kicked him out before Shiki returned to the mansion, and then Kouma retired himself to the mountains.
Last edited by Kansho on May 1st, 2008, 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 1st, 2008, 1:26 am

Kansho wrote:That was refering to Kouma since Kouma is the last Kishima alive. He killed them all before Nanaya's clan destruction.


Yes, but he could've had a son of his own, and that could be the son living with the Tohnos.

Also, how do you explain my objection? If he killed all his family then Hisui would not be refering to him as the eldest son of siblings of which he massacred.
Last edited by Miraploy on May 1st, 2008, 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Kansho » May 1st, 2008, 1:28 am

Kouma didn't have any sons. And as I wrote above, I think that is mentioned or implied in some places that the one staying for a while was Kouma (Act Cadenza or a material or something along the lines... the thing is that the fandom is sure about it.) Whe know that they kicked him and he's at the mountains as a hermit right now.

To the second question... Who knows, he is the "oldest son" after all, the "demonic child" of the Kishima, and a weapon to the Tohnos. Makihisa used him without remorses, and even "adopted" (not giving to him his family name but, maintaining him)
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 1st, 2008, 1:41 am

OK, but it's fair to say that it's a valid objection to the theory.

Another objection brought up on IRC (on which we're talking about this subject right now) is the fact that they called him the eldest son of Kishima. If he was the only Kishima alive, they would just call him Kishima-sama. But the eldest son of a long dead father that Hisui never met/was dead before she was born?

It makes more sense, from what information I do have, if Kishima isn't Kouma.
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Unread postby Kansho » May 1st, 2008, 1:42 am

Kinoko isn't know about consistency... and Kouma is a "demonic child", he is like a pariah (the Saeki even had him chained, he is more like a weapon of abnormal power).

And even that, we KNOW that the one who stayed was Kouma, is mentioned in various places/materials (And I think that even in Act Cadenza, as he explicity is in the mountain after being kicked of Tohno mansion). So discussion here is meaningless. Typical "fan-idea" was that they probably kicked him to evade any encounter with Shiki.

And we know that Kouma is the last Kishima. Only him is alive.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 1st, 2008, 1:52 am

Thanks Kansho, but basically us guys on the IRC want to see the line in question cited. We would appreciate it if you could oblige us. :wink:
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Unread postby Qaenyin Angelblade » May 1st, 2008, 3:18 am

Kansho wrote:Kinoko isn't know about consistency... and Kouma is a "demonic child", he is like a pariah (the Saeki even had him chained, he is more like a weapon of abnormal power).

And even that, we KNOW that the one who stayed was Kouma, is mentioned in various places/materials (And I think that even in Act Cadenza, as he explicity is in the mountain after being kicked of Tohno mansion). So discussion here is meaningless. Typical "fan-idea" was that they probably kicked him to evade any encounter with Shiki.

And we know that Kouma is the last Kishima. Only him is alive.


If Kouma is the last Kishima then it would be stated that "Kishima-san" or "Kishima-sama" had been staying with them, as he would be the head of the family at the time. Referring to "Kishima-sama's eldest son" or "The eldest son of the Kishimas" would only make sense if there was more than one Kishima, OR if Shiki knew the "Kishima-sama" being referred to as a frame of reference. Since he does not, it is inconsistent to state the son of someone who does not exist/is dead as a frame of reference to someone who is not familiar with the deceased.
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