Kishima kouma in tsukihime (spoilers)

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Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 1st, 2008, 6:04 am

Well... so we know Hisui refers to him as the eldest son of the Kishima Family but could it be that was the way he was introduced to her?

"Hisui. He is the eldest son of the Kishima Family. Please take him to his room."
"I understand. Please come this way"

I mean Makihisa/Akiha could have said something like that to her instead of telling her he was a killing mashine.
And I don't remember anything like a "silbings" being mentioned. When do they say something like that?
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Unread postby Kansho » May 1st, 2008, 7:16 am

Info known of Kishima Kouma. Copy-pasted from a Baiken's post at Beast's Lair. A mix of info from various sources:
"Kishima is a side branch of the Tōno family. They have a far thicker demon blood. Kōma himself is the most powerful of them, a demonic child, called as the crimson master - the strongest at Kurenai Sekishuu. He can actually generate flames. He killed all of the Kishima family when he was young. The Saeki's took him in, but then came along Kiri who wiped the whole house, poking one of young Kōma's eye out on the way because, although he didn't want to kill him, he sensed he would later be a threat.

Years later, Tōno Makihisa sets up a raid on the Nanaya village. Makihisa's men are wiped out, but Kōma comes in and annihilates everyone save for Shiki.
While Shiki was living at the Arimas afterward, Kōma was living at the Tōnos. He's kicked out shortly before Shiki comes back (so that they won't clash of course), then he goes off living in a forest at the mountains (that one is Act Cadenza info I think, I translated a pic from there a while ago)

And that's about it. The Kōma in Kagetsu Tōya is Shiki's fear, and the one in Act Cadenza is also a Tatari and he disappears the next morning.
Kōma doesn't talk much because if he has the time to talk, then he rather use that time to destroy some more. Basically. But he can talk. In AC (as a tatari, so) he doesn't seem too aggressive toward Shiki when he meets him, and after recognizing him as Kiri's son, he just goes "whatever, if you don't want, we can just part like that, I don't mind" so he doesn't seem too quarrelsome (Shiki is the one who flips out at the mention of "Nanaya" and "Kiri", for some reason that makes no sense to me, especially since he's scared shitless of him in KT)."



I would say that "eldest son of the Kishima" isn't really a basis to judge something since that's a translation. I didn't remember how Hisui called him in japanese, but maybe she used formal manners that were lost in the translation, or like zweiterversuch said, that's the way that they introduced Kouma to her. It isn't strange at all, and Kouma is the only Kishima we know (and is specified that he is the "only" alive many times) so is obvious to think that Kinoko was refering to Kouma, using that to lead to his entrance in Kagetsu Tohya (same as Kugamine).
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 1st, 2008, 8:25 pm

Well it's a good point. You would clearly win this debate if you can just point to the original text and say they clearly did not imply for him to have brothers or they clearly did not imply for him NOT to be the only Kishima alive.

You would also win if you can cite the line in question from Melty. All we have going now though is the logic based on one possibly mistranslated line from Tsukihime and that's put me in a state of indecision. It would be nice to have other evidence.
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Unread postby Kansho » May 1st, 2008, 8:34 pm

Well, Red Demon God says that he is the last one of his clan. And never was mentioned him with sons or something like that (He killed all the clan as a child, then lived chained by the Saekis, then in Tohno's house, and finally in the forest) so is stupid to think that as Kinoko never implied something around the lines. He was always refered as "the last of the Kishima" in character descriptions and that kind of things.

When the old man called Saiki brought his men, it was all over.
The mansion burned down and the clan was slaughtered leaving only one person.
He didn't understand what a family was in the first place, so ending it must have been also easy for him.
That's how he was possessed.
There was no regret, no remorse, no emotion, and no feelings.
After all, that was.
A living being that can only exist that way from the beginning.


That's what I found talking of the Kishima's ruin. Red Demon God as source.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby Miraploy » May 1st, 2008, 8:48 pm

Absolutely my point.

The quote about the eldest son contradicts the fact that he is the last Kishma. By saying all that, the quote implies the existence of other Kishimas. Therefore he must've had sons.

The time between Red Demon God and Tsukihime (10-12 years) is sufficient for him to have offspring.

Hisui's quote only makes sense if he was the last Kishima as of Red Demon God and then had sons. It would not make sense if he was the only Kishima as of Tsukihime, why would Hisui call him the eldest son of Kishima sama?

You can be right if it was a mis-translation or a retcon though, but from the evidence we do have, Kouma was not the guy staying over at the Tohno mansion.

In fact your chronology is inaccurate. Kishma only stayed at the Tohno house for 3 years prior to Tsukihime. So even if he is Kouma your chronology does not account for his whereabouts for 5-7 years.

And character descriptions written by whom? The most information we have on Kouma is from Red Demon God, 10-12 years before 'present'. If the descriptions are based on that then the descriptions would be outdated.
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Unread postby Kansho » May 1st, 2008, 8:54 pm

What!? The point "the last of the Kishimas" is that him is "the last of the Kisihimas", that's all. You are speculating. We only know that Kouma is the last one, so as far the official info we know, NO MORE KISHIMAS apart of him.

That's all. ALL the fandom in ALL the places (Beast's Lair, etc...) would say to you the same as me. There isn't more Kishimas than Kouma. He lives at the forest as an animal. There is nothing said about more Kishimas at any place, and even character description in all the materials called him "the last of the Kishimas". So as far we know no more Kishimas aside Kouma... that's the point about him. If someday appear info about a new Kishima, ok then.

You're only supporting yourself in your own speculation, but that's "not canon". Canon is Kouma = "last of the Kishima" as he killed them all. So all your reasoning is plainly out of place. He killed his parents, he killed his younger brothers, he killed all of them.

EDIT: Thank goodness!! Act Cadenza character description:

He is the firstborn of the head of the EXTINCT Kishima clan, which is
a sub-family related to the Tohnos. Thanks to the demonic traits (including the
mixture of oni blood) exceeding even that of the main Tohno clan, as well
as considerable strength and agility, he boasts tremendous hand-to-hand
combat skills.

Although the reference to the Kishima clan is already made in Tsukihime, his
first definite appearance as a character is in Kagetsu Tohya. However, the
only direct depiction of the "real thing" resides in a side-story of Kagetsu
Tohya, and any other incarnation is either another person's recollection of
him or an image that manifests for some particular reason.

His incarnation in this game is no exception, as the fear that was planted in
Shiki's mind when he massacred the Nanaya clan causes him to come to life
under the influence of Tatari's powers. He makes his Melty Blood debut in
this game, so he is not a part of the original Melty Blood or Re-ACT.


And probably Plus Period said the same, as the typical entry about the Kishimas always was "extincted kindred". I can go to Tsukihime laboratory or dictionary resource at Jonnobi to check it.

EDIT2: As far I readed in Jonnobi resource dictionary, Kouma is called "eldest son". He is the lord of the Kishimas, but as far he killed them all and he's the last one (he's the lord because of that), Kouma is refered alongside the article as "the eldest son of the Kishima". I think that this clear up the matter and explain the whole thing. Jonnobi implied that the evidence (about him as the one who stayed at Tohno mansion) is not still absolute, but as far we know, the clan is still destroyed, there aren't more Kishimas around and Kouma is always called "eldest son" by Kinoko. So at the end, probably was him and always is cited in the sources as if he was.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby Qaenyin Angelblade » May 3rd, 2008, 9:12 am

Kansho wrote:What!? The point "the last of the Kishimas" is that him is "the last of the Kisihimas", that's all. You are speculating. We only know that Kouma is the last one, so as far the official info we know, NO MORE KISHIMAS apart of him.

That's all. ALL the fandom in ALL the places (Beast's Lair, etc...) would say to you the same as me. There isn't more Kishimas than Kouma. He lives at the forest as an animal. There is nothing said about more Kishimas at any place, and even character description in all the materials called him "the last of the Kishimas". So as far we know no more Kishimas aside Kouma... that's the point about him. If someday appear info about a new Kishima, ok then.

You're only supporting yourself in your own speculation, but that's "not canon". Canon is Kouma = "last of the Kishima" as he killed them all. So all your reasoning is plainly out of place. He killed his parents, he killed his younger brothers, he killed all of them.

EDIT: Thank goodness!! Act Cadenza character description:

He is the firstborn of the head of the EXTINCT Kishima clan, which is
a sub-family related to the Tohnos. Thanks to the demonic traits (including the
mixture of oni blood) exceeding even that of the main Tohno clan, as well
as considerable strength and agility, he boasts tremendous hand-to-hand
combat skills.

Although the reference to the Kishima clan is already made in Tsukihime, his
first definite appearance as a character is in Kagetsu Tohya. However, the
only direct depiction of the "real thing" resides in a side-story of Kagetsu
Tohya, and any other incarnation is either another person's recollection of
him or an image that manifests for some particular reason.

His incarnation in this game is no exception, as the fear that was planted in
Shiki's mind when he massacred the Nanaya clan causes him to come to life
under the influence of Tatari's powers. He makes his Melty Blood debut in
this game, so he is not a part of the original Melty Blood or Re-ACT.


And probably Plus Period said the same, as the typical entry about the Kishimas always was "extincted kindred". I can go to Tsukihime laboratory or dictionary resource at Jonnobi to check it.

EDIT2: As far I readed in Jonnobi resource dictionary, Kouma is called "eldest son". He is the lord of the Kishimas, but as far he killed them all and he's the last one (he's the lord because of that), Kouma is refered alongside the article as "the eldest son of the Kishima". I think that this clear up the matter and explain the whole thing. Jonnobi implied that the evidence (about him as the one who stayed at Tohno mansion) is not still absolute, but as far we know, the clan is still destroyed, there aren't more Kishimas around and Kouma is always called "eldest son" by Kinoko. So at the end, probably was him and always is cited in the sources as if he was.



If that is the case it would have been appreciated to have cited those lines in the first place instead of this turning into a dabate about theoretical semantics and japanese formal honorifics -_-
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » May 4th, 2008, 4:42 pm

Qaenyin Angelblade wrote:
Kansho wrote:What!? The point "the last of the Kishimas" is that him is "the last of the Kisihimas", that's all. You are speculating. We only know that Kouma is the last one, so as far the official info we know, NO MORE KISHIMAS apart of him.

That's all. ALL the fandom in ALL the places (Beast's Lair, etc...) would say to you the same as me. There isn't more Kishimas than Kouma. He lives at the forest as an animal. There is nothing said about more Kishimas at any place, and even character description in all the materials called him "the last of the Kishimas". So as far we know no more Kishimas aside Kouma... that's the point about him. If someday appear info about a new Kishima, ok then.

You're only supporting yourself in your own speculation, but that's "not canon". Canon is Kouma = "last of the Kishima" as he killed them all. So all your reasoning is plainly out of place. He killed his parents, he killed his younger brothers, he killed all of them.

EDIT: Thank goodness!! Act Cadenza character description:

He is the firstborn of the head of the EXTINCT Kishima clan, which is
a sub-family related to the Tohnos. Thanks to the demonic traits (including the
mixture of oni blood) exceeding even that of the main Tohno clan, as well
as considerable strength and agility, he boasts tremendous hand-to-hand
combat skills.

Although the reference to the Kishima clan is already made in Tsukihime, his
first definite appearance as a character is in Kagetsu Tohya. However, the
only direct depiction of the "real thing" resides in a side-story of Kagetsu
Tohya, and any other incarnation is either another person's recollection of
him or an image that manifests for some particular reason.

His incarnation in this game is no exception, as the fear that was planted in
Shiki's mind when he massacred the Nanaya clan causes him to come to life
under the influence of Tatari's powers. He makes his Melty Blood debut in
this game, so he is not a part of the original Melty Blood or Re-ACT.


And probably Plus Period said the same, as the typical entry about the Kishimas always was "extincted kindred". I can go to Tsukihime laboratory or dictionary resource at Jonnobi to check it.

EDIT2: As far I readed in Jonnobi resource dictionary, Kouma is called "eldest son". He is the lord of the Kishimas, but as far he killed them all and he's the last one (he's the lord because of that), Kouma is refered alongside the article as "the eldest son of the Kishima". I think that this clear up the matter and explain the whole thing. Jonnobi implied that the evidence (about him as the one who stayed at Tohno mansion) is not still absolute, but as far we know, the clan is still destroyed, there aren't more Kishimas around and Kouma is always called "eldest son" by Kinoko. So at the end, probably was him and always is cited in the sources as if he was.



If that is the case it would have been appreciated to have cited those lines in the first place instead of this turning into a dabate about theoretical semantics and japanese formal honorifics -_-



Well you are right but it was fun.
http://visualnoveldai.com/
If you want to create your own visual novel go there!
Try it out, no compromise!
8 inches in a week!

btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!
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