The name of Shiki's knife

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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 15th, 2010, 10:51 am

Message wrote:
nanaya_shinya wrote:Kohaku just changed the blade of the knife when they (Shiki, Hisui, and Kohaku if I recall correctly) saw that the original blade can't be used anymore. It was just a little maintenance, if you ask me.

But where did you read this? I've never heard of it.

The VN, where else?

I remember when Shiki first got the knife, it was inside a thin wooden box about 20 cm long, came from the Arima family, and was left to him by Mikihisa. It says so in the man's will. Inside was a 10 cm bar of iron (which is actually the handle), and it was Kohaku that said that the iron bar was actually a knife (with a 10cm blade). Kohaku commented that the blade was old and she replaced it right then.

I'm going to re-read the VN to make sure, but I'm pretty sure that Kohaku actually DID replace the blade of the knife.

It was in the beginning of Day 2, just after the Wan Wan Panic event with Nero IIRC.
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby Gumaster » August 16th, 2010, 2:41 am

"It's old, but it seems pretty solid. The year and the era it was made in is written on the back."
Kohaku-san replaces the blade, and hands over the knife.


That's all i could find in that scene, and it seems to imply that she just retracted the blade back into the knife, rather than changing the actual blade. Hisui also mentions how it looks pretty old and worn out.

Actually, wasn't there a theory that
Makihisa didn't actually leave the knife for shiki, but kohaku gave it to him in hopes that he would remember something about his past, as per her master plan or something?
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 17th, 2010, 2:23 am

Gumaster wrote:
"It's old, but it seems pretty solid. The year and the era it was made in is written on the back."
Kohaku-san replaces the blade, and hands over the knife.


That's all i could find in that scene, and it seems to imply that she just retracted the blade back into the knife, rather than changing the actual blade. Hisui also mentions how it looks pretty old and worn out.

Can anyone check the original Japanese version for this, please?
It determines whether or not I misunderstood that line for years or not.
*curses the multiple meanings of the word "replace"*

As for WHY the knife is there, why not go and ask Teh Mushroom (Kinoko Nasu) himself?
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby Message » August 17th, 2010, 5:56 am

nanaya_shinya wrote:Can anyone check the original Japanese version for this, please?
It determines whether or not I misunderstood that line for years or not.
*curses the multiple meanings of the word "replace"*


It's a switch blade. She folds it up again. But I'll humor you:

 琥珀さんは刃をしまってからナイフを手渡してくる。
Kohaku-san wa ha o shimatte kara naifu o tewatashite kuru

shima': to finish / to close / to do something completely / to put away / to put an end to
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby sushimonster » August 17th, 2010, 8:09 am

nanaya_shinya wrote:Can anyone check the original Japanese version for this, please?
It determines whether or not I misunderstood that line for years or not.
*curses the multiple meanings of the word "replace"*


As gumaster says too.
If I remember this scene correctly, Kohaku 'replaced' the blade in front of Hisui and Shiki right before he goes off to school. Doesn't really 'fit-in' if she suddenly yanks out the existing blade and sticks a new one in, all after saying that the knife is Shiki's... So the 'replace', as backed up by message, implies that Kohaku simply folded up the switch blade.

...Hmm... This feels like an English lesson of sorts...
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 17th, 2010, 8:27 pm

Message wrote:琥珀さんは刃をしまってからナイフを手渡してくる。
Kohaku-san wa ha o shimatte kara naifu o tewatashite kuru

Well there's my problem, it's my fault for not reading the original Japanese script. My Japanese wasn't as good back then as it is now anyway, though there's still quite a lot for me to learn specially those high level kanji used later or earlier, I dunno... I never really read the Japanese script, save for skipping most parts just to see a quote in the original script. I most likely wouldn't have misunderstood things if the game was voiced (which hopefully TYPE-MOON might add in the remake) though.

I guess I've been using the other meaning of the word "replace" for that line for years... :oops:
It's my miss to not recognize that Kohaku replaced (restored to former condition, folded up the switchblade so to speak) the blade instead of Kohaku replacing (changing with a substitute) the blade.

俺の間抜けだった、申し訳ありません。

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To me, it's just a refinement of the secondary language (English) that I've learn to read, and speak since I was a little kid... and a reminder for me to continue studying Japanese, particularly (the dreaded) Kanji.
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby Message » August 18th, 2010, 4:58 am

nanaya_shinya wrote:Well there's my problem, it's my fault for not reading the original Japanese script.
Not that it matters in the least, but I disagree. I've never read the Japanese either. The translation says "Kohaku replaces", not "I've replaced" or anything of the sort. There's only one way you can interpret that.

@Gumaster:
Indeed that seems to be the general consensus, that Kohaku gave him the knife for her own purposes. However I wouldn't be surprised if the knife was actually kept by Makihisa, perhaps for sentimental purposes or whatnot, because Shiki and SHIKI did have a habit of carving their names into anything they could get their hands on. They must've had some good knives for that.

The name Nanaya might very well have been added by Kohaku, but once again I wouldn't be surprised if it'd been on there from the beginning. Nanaya is a family of exceptionally trained demon killers, after all. A family heirloom being a knife makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 18th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Message wrote:The translation says "Kohaku replaces", not "I've replaced" or anything of the sort. There's only one way you can interpret that.

Au contraire, as I have interpreted "Kohaku-san replaces the blade" as "Kohaku-san changes the blade".

Not that it matters now since the original script states that Kohaku just folded up the switchblade before handing it over to Shiki. Thus, clearing any misinterpretations on my part.
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby Message » August 19th, 2010, 4:59 am

nanaya_shinya wrote:
Message wrote:The translation says "Kohaku replaces", not "I've replaced" or anything of the sort. There's only one way you can interpret that.

Au contraire, as I have interpreted "Kohaku-san replaces the blade" as "Kohaku-san changes the blade".

Ah, as in "While I'm anxiously waiting to run off to school because I'm already quite late, Kohaku takes the knife, sits down at the table and casually starts taking the knife apart. Surprisingly, she grabs a random blade from the drawer that just happens to fit exactly. While Hisui and I stand around entranced by her actions, she exchanges the blade with a new one and reassembles the folding knife dexterously. I know I'm now already half an hour too late for school, but for some reason I never even thought about leaving the knife with Kohaku and getting the replaced blade when I come back home this afternoon."

-- how did you image this, exactly? It says replaces, not replaced. The translation leaves no room for misinterpretation. Unless for some reason you're expecting it to be grammatically incorrect?
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby abscess » August 19th, 2010, 6:22 am

@Shinya
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/replace wrote:replace
1 : to restore to a former place or position <replace cards in a file>
2 : to take the place of especially as a substitute or successor
3 : to put something new in the place of <replace a worn carpet>

Long story short, "replaces" in this case means Kohaku "restore[d] to a former place or position" the blade.

This is just a case of not understanding English correctly. With that said, it's baffling this discussion has dragged on this long.
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 19th, 2010, 8:54 am

abscess wrote:This is just a case of not understanding English correctly. With that said, it's baffling this discussion has dragged on this long.

Oh I dunno, message probably thinks that the idea of me (or anyone else for that matter) not understanding that line correctly is BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE... that or he's just trolling me for my INCOMPETENCE at English. I mean seriously, I just misunderstood that line as it is, discussion ends there... it's unnecessary to drag the discussion as long as he just did.
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby Uberoy » August 19th, 2010, 10:58 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:
abscess wrote:This is just a case of not understanding English correctly. With that said, it's baffling this discussion has dragged on this long.

Oh I dunno, message probably thinks that the idea of me (or anyone else for that matter) not understanding that line correctly is BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE... that or he's just trolling me for my INCOMPETENCE at English. I mean seriously, I just misunderstood that line as it is, discussion ends there... it's unnecessary to drag the discussion as long as he just did.

No need to get upset. This is the closest thing to a intellectual discussion taking place on this forum for a very long time. Why not try to cherrish that moment?
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 21st, 2010, 12:10 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:
abscess wrote:This is just a case of not understanding English correctly. With that said, it's baffling this discussion has dragged on this long.

Oh I dunno, message probably thinks that the idea of me (or anyone else for that matter) not understanding that line correctly is BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE... that or he's just trolling me for my INCOMPETENCE at English. I mean seriously, I just misunderstood that line as it is, discussion ends there... it's unnecessary to drag the discussion as long as he just did.




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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 21st, 2010, 4:57 pm

@Uberoy
I'm not really upset, I just don't find it necessary to drag a discussion that far for something so trivial, when I already made my point (being that I misunderstood a line as it is) clear.

Back to the knife... I wonder who the original owner of that knife is?
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby Gumaster » September 10th, 2010, 3:50 pm

I kinda wondered about that too-was it *made* for shiki, or did they kinda just reach into their weapons cache and fish something out?
well, that aside....the blade is 10cm, right? So how on earth did he cut through things that were thicker than 10cm? (I'm looking at you, nrvnqsr's beasts)
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Re: The name of Shiki's knife

Unread postby Message » September 10th, 2010, 7:02 pm

Gumaster wrote:So how on earth did he cut through things that were thicker than 10cm?

The same reason why he couldn't break his hospital bed with his fingers: He can't reach deep enou--- Wait... That doesn't really seem right, does it? >__>;;


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