Tsukihime: We need a standard for ? and ---

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Tsukihime: We need a standard for ? and ---

Unread postby TheXev » September 7th, 2004, 3:40 am

OrganGrinder has brought up the interesting issue of the inconstancy of ? and --- in the translation of Tsukihime. I started this topic because currently I don?t feel like adding more moderators to this forum XD
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Unread postby OrganGrinder » September 7th, 2004, 3:48 am

-22:26:33- (OrganGrinder4Prez) Ryuusoul : when translating and there's the '.........', you should do '...'
-22:26:42- (OrganGrinder4Prez) I think that's what we've been doing otherwise

22:27:59- (!TheXev) try to leave stuff like the silices the original length, because it will effect the presentation in the game otherwise
-22:28:05- (!AznTyrant2564) Arcturus chinese has the same ".........................."
-22:28:08- (!AznTyrant2564) problem XD
-22:28:09- (OrganGrinder) >:(
-22:28:16- (OrganGrinder) Seriously
-22:28:30- (OrganGrinder) Because the different translators have been varying the '...
-22:28:41- (!AznTyrant2564) like they just use that stuff loosely
-22:28:52- (OrganGrinder) For Ryuu it's the full 6, and for some other ones it's '...'
-22:28:52- (!TheXev) if it where an RPG, i'd aruge to shorten it, but in Tsukihime, its prob done using a timing trigger.
-22:28:56- (!AznTyrant2564) some dude feels like "..." some just goes "................"
-22:29:00- (OrganGrinder) >. http://kittyloaf.net/sforums/viewforum. ... 176e166b85
-22:30:41- ???? Join? (tjm) (tjm35@12ed360d.1b533a89.cam.ac.uk)
-22:30:44- (OrganGrinder) Yeah, we need to standardize the '...' and '---' so I can proofread without going 'wtf d00d'
-22:32:12- (OrganGrinder) meh
-22:32:14- (OrganGrinder) ok
-22:32:26- (Ryuusoul) sometimes the game actually does use --- and sometimes it does use ...
-22:32:34- (OrganGrinder) I'm going to delete the proofread I made editing the '.......' until we have a final determination
-22:32:39- (OrganGrinder) WEll, there's another problem
-22:32:47- (OrganGrinder) I noticed TJM was changing ---- into ...
-22:32:57- (!TheXev) well, usually a --- would indicate a cut off in speech... at least in English
-22:33:00- (Ryuusoul) I saw that too...
-22:33:03- (OrganGrinder) YEah.
-22:33:07- (Ryuusoul) That's how it is used in the game, mostly
-22:33:13- (!TheXev) Example: "What do you---"
-22:33:20- (OrganGrinder) YEah, I know what it is in english
-22:33:29- (Ryuusoul) or a trailing off or extension
-22:33:29- (OrganGrinder) HOWEVER, this is what I noticed, and we need to set a standard
-22:33:36- (OrganGrinder) Or else it will get disjointed.
-22:33:50- (!TheXev) "What do you..." would make is seem like the person speeching has trailed off.. its not abrupt
-22:33:50- (Ryuusoul) How about just use --- when its there and ... when that is there?
-22:34:03- (OrganGrinder) ---What do you mean?
-22:34:10- (OrganGrinder) I think ... is more of a contemplative pause
-22:34:16- (OrganGrinder) While --- is more of an akward silence
-22:34:33- (OrganGrinder) At the begining of sentences
-22:34:34- (Ryuusoul) well, the game uses them both ways, sometimes
-22:34:40- (!TheXev) when i was doing the test hacks with Evo's original script, i converted all ...'s to --- in situations like that
-22:34:49- (!TheXev) just because it looked better on screen.. at least to me
-22:34:59- (OrganGrinder) ho hum
-22:35:17- (OrganGrinder) Well, I'm going to copy-paste this chatlog about ... and --- into the forum
-22:35:28- (OrganGrinder) and hopefully we can come up with a standard
-22:35:30- (!TheXev) sounds good
-22:35:33- (Ryuusoul) a good idea

Basically, some translators have been changing '-----' to '---' or '--' or '...'. And '.......' are no better, with a large variation between translators, some people using '...' and others using the full '......' The main problem with this is that while the game may have timing for '.......' the proper english is '...'.

Also, '...' and '---' themselves mean different things, one is a contemplative pause, the other is an interuption or akward silence. But still, we should decide if not just for translation consistancy.

Anyone got an argument?


Leave the equal length for '----' and '....' from japanese to english
change '---' to '...'
change '......' to '...'

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Unread postby Will » September 12th, 2004, 8:36 pm

I think we should go with how the game has it. Like you mentioned before, the game probably has some timing issues with periods and dashes. I vote for keeping it as it is.
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Unread postby Byrnedhead » March 10th, 2005, 5:33 am

I also support leaving hyphens in the text. What I'm concerned about is the following policy laid forth in the proofreading guidelines regarding spaces after ellipses:
"Use of ellipses: There should be a space between the end of an ellipis and the next word. If there is no words before the first ellipsis in a sentence, then it should be capitalized. eg: "... But, Ciel-sempai... didn't we agree to meet this afternoon? Behind the shed? *wink*wink*nudge*nudge*". But, if it was like this: "Ahh... Yes, that's what it was.", then since the 'Ahh...' bit is fine on it's own, you have to capitalize the next word.

I assume the reasoning for this is to prevent unnecessary line breaks, as might happen when you have something like "Rhynchobdellea...Irregardless," where the first word might fit on the line but both words won't, so the whole thing gets put on a new line unnecessarily.

In any case, it looks sort of weird to me when the ellipsis (or hyphen) has a space after it when it's not preceded by any words. Consider:

"...But that's ridiculous, anyway."
"... But that's ridiculous, anyway."

The ellipsis kind of implies a continuity in the speaker's demeanor, while putting a space between the ellipsis and the word implies a break in said continuity. The space shouldn't be necessary in this situation to avoid annoying line breaks, since the ellipsis doesn't have any words before it. Also, as can be seen above, sometimes the line break splits up the ellipsis and the next word, which looks even weirder.

I don't really want to kick up dust since I just joined the project, I'm just really anal. For now I'm following the existing policy in my editing. If no one wants to change horses in the middle of the stream, that's ok, but also only about 1/6 of the text has been proofed, so I don't think it's too late to change things. It's also possible that this issue's been resolved elsewhere, I dunno.
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Unread postby Ryuusoul » March 10th, 2005, 3:13 pm

I agree. I forget what our decision process was in deciding it, but I've always preferred the much more natural-looking way. I think I'll start doing that, in fact.
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